Souphak Kienitz: You are listening to conversations with Chanda, where leadership gets real and personal. This is where we cut through the noise to confront the issues shaping our world from power and justice to the heart of community change. Hosted by Chanda Smith Baker.
Chanda Smith Baker: Tonya Jackman Hampton. Welcome to Conversations with Chanda. This is a special conversation, y'all, because I've known Tonya since I was very young, or young-ish, but for sure, um, before I graduated, high school. And we have, uh, traveled our lives, uh, apart and together for a really long time. So it's really an honor to be in this conversation with you.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Oh, and you as well. I'm just both, you know, giddy and, and excited. All at the same time.
Chanda Smith Baker: Before we get started, it would be great if you could just, um, introduce yourself in terms of how you talk about yourself, how, what's your elevator speech? So, who's Tonya?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Well, I am, you know, if dad were in the room, Dr.
Tonya Jackman Hampton. He likes me to say the whole thing because it's a representation of him and, you know, the legacy quite honestly. And he's very proud of that. And I, I, I didn't grow into that until I got much older in life and understand the true importance of it. In general, I am born and raised from Minnesota.
I'm a native and I've been there most of my life. Up until more recently I moved to San Diego, California, which I'm so delighted to be here. I certainly miss family and friends like yourself. Uh, but at the same token, I don't miss net snow. Not at all. And so, well, I, I'm glad to be here and I also have been in HR for 30 years, so that's also part of who I am.
And. What I represent. I've been down the path starting in the legal space, and then evolved into human resource roles and really pride myself in the ability to transform individuals, teams, and organizations. I love to do that work, and I've done that across mostly healthcare systems, and I continue to do that also.
In the nonprofit space. So that is a representation of my work. I have two kids, uh, grown people. One is 30 almost. She'll be 30 on May 13th. She'll be celebrating that birthday, that milestone. It's hard to believe that I've got a 30-year-old, but I've got one I. It went by so fast and you helped raise her, so thank you for that.
Yeah, and my son, he is 26. He's out here in San Diego with me, actually, I, I should say he's 25. I'm, I'm fast forwarding him to, but his birthday will be July 13th or July 3rd. Uh, and so he. With me, my daughter's in Minnesota, my husband is in Minneapolis. We'll be soon moving here permanently in San Diego.
He's graduating from law school. And so those are obviously, um, strong influencers in my life and individuals that I live for, in addition to my, you know, my broader, immediate family. Then certainly, uh, friends, it's, it pays to have a, uh, a strong community at which I, um, have expressed a bit, as well as there are people that I've not yet brought into the space, but are pretty much a part of my, uh, upbringing.
I've got, uh, a legacy, um, from Minnesota. My, uh, my grandfather, Cecil e Newman, created the Minnesota Spokesman Recorder. Uh, actually it was two separate names, Minneapolis, uh, recorder in St. Paul. Newspaper. They came together as one Minnesota spokesman recorder and, um, tra Tracy, uh, Williams Dillard now owns the paper and is the CEO, but really the makeup of what they did, that being my grandmother and grandfather, um, allowed me to understand the importance of storytelling and telling it in a factual way.
And that is a part of how I show up and really understand their background. I do my very best to help them, um, you know, contribute in any way that I can to the success that they're really trying to achieve.
Chanda Smith Baker: You know, Tonya, you brought up family. Even with the way that I introduced you, I said your maiden name, your father's name, your family name, and there is something that is really remarkable.
I think as you get older where you under, you begin to understand sort of the depth of contribution. Of people that are around you, particularly your family, I think you think differently about it. How has that legacy that you just shared with us, how has that evolved over, over your life? Like, do you think your children get it?
Like what was that evolution like for you?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: I, I'll start with the, the kids. That's where I laughed. It's present for them in their mind and different. Ways of being present for both children. Um, my daughter, she understands it conceptually. She knows different parts of the story and the, even the streets that they have names, um, she's familiar with.
She was a part of. A lot of the, the, um, walks and petitioning that occurred during the murder of George Floyd and she, um, walked those streets, those avenues. And so she's, it resonates with her, but I would suggest that she also wants to be able to define herself without it. And I can understand that. Um, what is her own identity?
Who is she as a woman, and how does she show up or impact the world? For my son, I think it's a distant or, um, uh, point of reference. He, they, both children know that it's a part of their history, but I don't, um, I would say that he didn't frankly, have a familiarity with the streets until after the murder of George Floyd and I drove him around.
Right. And I said, this is, these are the corridors that mom grew up in. The buses that she rode, you know, from whether it was Chicago Avenue or Fourth Avenue, I know that you're familiar with those routes. And then I also took 'em around some of the avenues and the surrounding areas described what the old, old Kmart used to look like, and that I think.
If you asked him, he'd have some, you know, clarity about what he experienced, but it's not as in the forefront as, as I would suggest, um, myself or, or my daughter for that matter. And that's just to give a contrast, right? It doesn't mean that there's one better than the other. Yeah. Um, I think as they get older, it will be even a more prominent, um, uh, memory.
That's what I hope for in the sense of it will lead and guide them and they'll be able to reflect back. That's really though a perspective I hold based on my own experience, um, my own experience. You know, when I start from the very beginnings of age five, it's one of the more, uh, vivid memories I have of my grandfather.
He would give me money and it was a coin here and there and you know, it wasn't like, you know, lots of, but for a kid it was right. And so. I was proud that, um, he would extend that to me. And I reflect on it now, and I've labeled it whether it was it's accurate or not, as his way of extending wealth, you know, giving some capital, um, to his offspring, to his, um, his family.
And so I, I hold that because I, I, I know he was proud when he did it. He smiled and he, he, he often gave it. And that for me, um, gives me the understanding that, you know, obviously wealth and economic growth is really important, and how do I integrate that into the things that I do in my life and or people around me?
How do I educate them about what I know? I would say that. There are different mts that, um, show up as a result of the activities that they took part in. And it, it's richer now. And one of the things that's richer is the connectivity, right? The importance of community, the importance of, of, um, strong relationships and truly doing your very best to identify, um, different ways to connect other people, uh, and to give us a.
Human capital, right. Or agency in terms of the human relationships that we might have and, and then being respectful of people's stories. That too shows up for me.
Chanda Smith Baker: My uncle, folks that have listened to this podcast knew was the first African American superintendent of schools in in Minneapolis, and. I remember growing up and like with any public position, some people are down with you, some people aren't down with you.
Right. And I remember there was a really difficult leadership, uh, period of, of his tenure where they had to close schools. And I remember being in schools and having teachers say things to me as though I was a, an adult that had some sort of. Choice on who my relative was or choice in mm-hmm. Or, or influence in his decision.
I remember being very awkward about it. And, um, as I've gotten older, I have realized a couple of things. One is my ability to sort of witness his leadership, witnessed it in good times, witnessed it when it wasn't great. Um, watch him with others as they debated and deliberated and discussed what was happening in community.
And I think similarly to the journey you're talking about, I realized there was a point in which I wanted to establish on my own and then realize I was never establishing on my own. Right. Right. Like, I just never was doing that. And, um, and not just my uncle, because, you know, my mother, my father, you know, they all had ways of being in, in the community that, uh, we are from.
And so. You know, it feels to me like I've heard you talk about it more, and I'm just wondering if there's other ways that maybe it's, um, made you more solid perhaps on the, the challenges or the opportunities that you faced in your own leadership.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Oh, for, yes, for sure. And some of it was subconscious and others parts of it weren't.
Right. And, um. Many women in my family were very direct, but soft. Right? So people who I would characterize as the, the family matriarch or um, regal. Or, um, very graceful, but you understood where you stood. Uh, and what that meant is they were very, you know, right. Honest about their point of view and perspective, but respectful and, and so that characteristic certainly is one that I hold and carry.
I also grew up in a surrounding of women that. Believe that in order to maintain your strongness or credibility, you shouldn't cry. And that in some respects I complied with and in other respects, I don't anymore and I, I don't anymore because of some of my own tragedies that I've had and realize that crying is a part of healing and that it's okay not to be okay.
That some of the, you know, right readings I've done, but I also am. Still bias that holding cry in tears in certain situations just like they did, um, is a way to exude or exhibit your strength. And, and again, that's from the experiences and how people have taught me, the women in my life have taught me,
Chanda Smith Baker: you know, all of it was, uh, about survival.
Yes, in many respects. And, and I understand that you also said George Floyd's name, and so anytime his name is spoken, I tried to give a moment of pause and reflection of that period of time. And you were also in HR you said, for 30 years. Um mm-hmm. And so, man, the practice of HR seems to have evolved quite a bit since you got started in it.
What stands out to you in terms of, of the evolution? And I only bring George Floyd's name into it because it feels like it really changed, um, the way that I've even leaned into it afterwards. Um, it feels like, um, the, the culture within organizations became way more informed loudly by race, um, gender age.
More so than I had seen it. I don't know if that is reflective of your own experience or not.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Yeah, I would say that it is. There's been, certainly, I'd describe it as ebbs and flows, and depending upon the organization, there has been more, you know, um, definitive language around the, the constructs of diversity, equity, inclusion, and, um, racism, what it is, what it isn't.
And I would say that of the experiences that I've had. There's been a couple different trends. One is the tripping upon what are the words that you used? That's no different than where we are today, right? Like as I've evolved in the space of hr, or very specifically in when I was in the diversity role, it was how do we define diversity?
How do we define inclusion? How do we define equity? And today we are having those same conversations, and in fact, we're trying to come up with other words to define so that we don't right, offend or upset or, um, subtract ourselves from certain, um, circumstances or getting certain resources. My true belief is it's a chase, it's a distraction, and I think we have to.
As HR leaders, um, as business owners get very clear on what we believe, what are our values, and lead from that, uh, challenge ourselves to think new ways and see it as a way to grow rather than a, um, something to inhibit us from moving forward. And so I, um, that's what I hope for in this current, um, space of confusion.
Another trend I would say is that. Being honest about where you are at, let's say demographically, right? In terms of the people that are in your organization. What are your gaps and um, what are your strengths? And the conversation, I really hope people continue to have more often is that. The differences in the visibility of our people in our organizations is no different than the visibility of the what's in the black or what's in the green in our organizations in terms of money.
You know, however you refer to your, your, your books, your p and l. Yeah. What are we, you know, what's the profits that we're gaining? What are the loss? I don't want to confuse the idea of comparing people to numbers, right?
Chanda Smith Baker: I get, yeah, I get
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: the point. But the point is, is it's a gap. How do we close it if we're not able to make a certain amount of, um, profit or, or get a certain amount of gain in terms of footing in the market that we're trying to be in?
We focus to increase that. Similarly from a people perspective, how do we make sure that we have the right talent that we need? And it doesn't have to be a, a racial build always. That's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is be honest with yourself and identify where you have an opportunity to improve certain talent in your organization and cast a net as far as you can to get different individuals into your organization.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Do you, um. You described it as a chase, and there's a lot of people, I mean, talking to me about websites in language. Why, why do you describe it as a chase?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: I think it's similar to a, um, uh, you know, the chase is you're just running and you're not really going, um, at a certain level of productivity.
It's, uh, like the old adage of a hamster on a treadmill. And just going, going, going and not having a direction. And so, um, the, the current, I think climate is causing us to want to, um, determine whether or not we're using the right terms. And that's a good exercise for a period of time. But, um, I think that most organizations have already defined the terms that are being challenged today.
So, sure, sure. You wanted to find some terms, but let's identify some other ones rather than, um, the ones that we've been using that have been working and that, uh, we really need to, you know, continue to focus on the strategies rather than the definitions. Right.
Chanda Smith Baker: And it, it seemed, I mean, it's an opportunity to see whether or not your values aligned.
I mean, how you are. Is how you treat people, how you are, what your goals are, what you're trying to achieve. Um, sit squarely in the middle of this conversation. It feels like it's creating a certain amount of angst and confusion and certainly it's creating a lot of fear, which is why we are in this conversation.
Because you recently wrote a book about fear. It did. Uh, and how one can be in relationship with fear. Talk to me about the journey to becoming an author.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Oh gosh. Uh, it was quite the deniable journey for me. I. I started out wanting to, uh, achieve my one goal for completing my, uh, my degree, my doctorate degree, which was my dissertation.
So I had to write and identify a topic that was important and at the time, I'll come back 360. Uh, that, you know, my grandmother was dying of ovarian cancer and I was also an executive in a healthcare organization, and I was a mother and a wife. And so I, with those challenges and ones I've not mentioned, I, um, I knew I still needed to complete my dissertation in order to graduate.
I also knew I wasn't alone. And so I wanted to identify who were other people in this right community that were experiencing the similar emotions that I was experiencing, so that I could have a community, uh, that I could relate to, uh, and that I could identify what are some remedies for dealing with emotions like fear, doubt, worries, stress, whatever.
Um. Came up in those conversations, which you know were for me as well as for the people that I spoke to. So that was the start of the journey. And then over the years, I, um, after completing the dissertation, I quite frankly, I put it aside, never thought I would write again, never wanted to write again. And I, uh, then however, had the wonderful opportunity to work for a boutique firm in Silver Spring, Maryland.
The organization was called Quick Ross. It's now referred to as B Equal. And, um, Howard Ross, who's one of the, uh, individuals that. I did a testimony on my book. Uh, he is a, um, very long lifetime friend. He's now someone I refer to as my big brother. And he, um, and he, he, he actually is, he's tall, he's very tall.
He's like six five. Um, that's Big Brother Howard. So he, you know, and all the other thought leaders that I had the opportunity to work with at that firm inspired me to do more writing. And in the process too, I collected. A lot of data from a number of the different workshops that I did on the same core questions that I asked in the dissertation.
What are your fears? How do you respond, and what is your relationship with your fear? That helped me to crystallize the data. Then I met my publisher at Wise Inc. And um, Dar Bevis. She really helped me, uh, who now is my sorority sister and you being a sorority sister as well. It's such a wonderful thing.
Uh, and I will dito back and say that, um, uh, you know, I talked to her twice. I met her at the Women in Business, um, awards, uh, two. Well, actually probably about five years before I actually wrote the book and, um, walked away. I said, Nope, I'm not doing it. And then I saw her again at Women in Business and she said, let's talk.
So we talked and she encouraged me to write it, so I did. And her team was phenomenal. It was the best experience that, uh, I think I could have had as a first time writer. Um, they were very responsive and, um, they were coaches, uh, and at different phases, people who helped me to, uh, refine the writing. Uh, people who helped me to edit it, helped with the cover, helped with the title.
Uh, Dar and I went back and forth once and it was just, I think a testament to how much she learned about the work, uh, during the time that I was working with them. So.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, I think that, I mean, she's so good at that and I think, um, you know, as you were talking, you were saying names. And she is one of those people.
And I think we've all had those people that sort of see what you have in you and just sort of poke it all outta you, right? Mm-hmm. Like write a book. Write a book, or someone that you know, go for this role, go for this thing. Can you talk about just perhaps the influence of other mentors that you've had?
'cause you, you talked about Howard. Uh, because I'm sure all of that sort of, um, emerged as you were, were writing, but I, I just think that it's just a wonderful thing to just sort of acknowledge the people that supported you in, in that, that particular journey. I.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Oh gosh. And there's so many to name. Thank you, um, for asking the question, and I know I will miss someone.
Uh, but, you know, I always kind of go with what's the, what's the immediate thing that comes up for you? And the first person that hit me was Michelle Miller. Uh, she is, um, just a, she's now an endearing person that I refer to as an aunt, and she's a, a general counsel that used to work at Medtronic with me and her, along with a.
Another leader, Rick Carryon, who's actually here in California. He was a sales leader, uh, at Medtronic. I worked directly with him. Um, but him and Michelle had, you know, business relations, uh, work that they did together and because of, um, their, I their belief in their connection. So belief in my work and their, just, their relationship, they pretty much, you know, created a pack.
To make sure that I had opportunities at Medtronic and I, um, I would say that absolutely the, uh, the successes that I had while at that organization are a result of them primarily. I. I also worked with several others, you know, um, uh, Lee Butcher, Sandy Harris. These are names that would be known mostly obviously in the state of Minnesota.
Uh, Sandy's now out though in, in, um, Maryland. Yeah. And, and just those are examples of people that helped me along the way. Mm-hmm. I will say too, I was fortunate. Um, in my career to have a number of different black leaders that I reported to, I and I, I don't take that lightly. I feel like I was fortunate to have people who I could look up to that looked like me, and I could observe and watch them, uh, do the things that, uh, you know, they were successful at or just learn from them in the opportunities that they.
Things that they struggled with and, um, incorporate either the strengths or opportunities into my own leadership. And so, um, those people come to mind. And, and had it not been for not having those, um, those leadership relationships, again, the, I wouldn't not have, I don't think, um, been as wise about the different steps that I could take.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. And, and, um, you name sort of a diversity of people because I know them. And then sort of called out having the opportunity to witness, um, black leaders. And we have a very diverse audience of listeners and I don't want to skip past that particular point too quickly because, um, that is really important.
We talk about it also in school and education where it's important that. Brown and black children have, uh, teachers that, um, reflect them. I think it it allows you to access. Um, possibility differently. And it's also important to have other people in your life that represent other diversities to like balance it out.
Mm-hmm. But what, what in particular were some things that you were able to glean if you could, from the black leaders? 'cause I just think this is such a good point for us to talk about as we get ready to jump into, into fear because it shows up differently. The fear show up differently for all of us. And then there is some consistent fears or navigations that we've had to have as black women.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Yeah. Uh, one is, you know, get as many possible mentors as you possibly can at different stages in your life. And that, you know, sticks out for me from as early as my very first, what I'd call corporate job. The one that I could say is on my chart for, you know, what's. The first career I ever had and riding an elevator with, um, Annette Minor is another person, uh, at Piper Jaffy, and she tapped me.
She said, I haven't seen you before. I wanna get to know you. And at that point, Annette was, and still I feel like I could call her today. I've watched her kids grow up. Um, certainly on, you know, it's been on social media, but. Um, nonetheless, I know I could reach to her as someone that, um, would write, give me some ideas and concepts.
The other thing I would say is that, um, being mindful of. The stories that people tell you and what you should or should not share about those stories. I had a leader in my, um, one of my, uh, my first hr, uh, roles, and we created a relationship such that, you know, obviously she gave me work and we interacted on what that work was, but at the same token, I had the benefit of building a relationship with her.
And then even now it's beyond, we're still friends and, um. In that experience, what I learned is that she confided in me and I had to be careful about, you know, not sharing that story. And so it was in to the extent of I was in a situation, she was there and I named a person's name, but I didn't tell the story.
She called me on it. Later and said, I just want you to be careful. I know you and I have talked about that person, but please, you know, be careful, mindful of, um, even just saying the person's name. And so I, um, I took note of that, right? And so it helped me to realize the importance even more so of, um.
Being mindful of the stories that you hear from other people, but not bringing them into another situation. And then finally, I would say accountability around work. Right? So deliver what's the work that you've been asked to do and make sure that you deliver. And if you can't explain why. And then identify ways, um, to, to solve the problem.
Don't just bring a problem forward.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right? Yeah. Very good lessons. And I think that. Um, people that invest in you have a way, uh, being supportive and saying, and you can't do that. Right. And you need to do that. It's like, you know, you're, it's funny that you're like defining people by, you know, auntie and like, they're like a brother.
Because when you get to that stage, you'll be like, girl, what, what was you thinking? Yeah, exactly. You know, like, don't do that no more. And so I think that we could both name a number of people that have, um, sort of come alongside us and pushed us. And, um, I think in this particular moment in season where people are feeling quite stressed.
You know, one of the things that I like to call and when people ask me about self-care, I'm like, part of my self-care is reminding myself that I'm not alone and all the people that have invested in me, that I've invested in and that have supported me and are here if I need to make a phone call so feared.
Mm-hmm. What are you telling us about fear in this book?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Yeah. I am, I'm trying to give people a number one, a place in space to express their, their hardest emotions that we don't allow particularly, um, when we think about the image of a leader, uh, we don't give leaders a place in space, although I do convey in the book that there everyone is a leader.
You have to be a leader of yourself first in order to, to lead others. Uh, and so. Uh, the book is hopefully one that speaks to anyone and everyone that picks it up. And, um, I have the opportunity to find my book in their hands, if you will. And I also am talking about, um, to, to disregard the path that we have always heard the flight, flight or freeze so that people, um, don't.
It gets stuck in thinking that that's the only thing that we should do if something scares us. You know, how do we run away? Or how do we just disregard it, avoid it, and I give a path for helping people to experience fear while at the same time how can they engage, explore, and execute rather than the fight, flight, or freeze.
And then I also talk about what are the common fears that, uh, came out of the research that I did with the various different leaders that I spoke to and boiled it down to while there were 16 universal fears that showed up, I boiled it down to four and they are, um, fears that we've heard before. But what was really nice that I appreciated about the work is it affirmed.
Some of the messages that we've heard, um, one of the number one fears that people have is public speaking, and it's because they worry about failure. So that's the first one. The second one is the effect that we are going to have on the audience, you know, the impact that we might have. Whether or not we're gonna be successful.
Uh, the third is uncertainty, which is really a hovering term right now here today. The uncertainty that we are experiencing, the reality is, is uncertainty is always around us. And so how do we reflect on when we have been successful under uncertainty and utilize those, those, um, experiences to be successful going forward?
And then finally. Is the D and the D is, um, distrust. We often distrust the audience or the people that we are interacting with. And so how can we ground ourselves in trust so that we can engage, um, and still execute what we're trying to, um, take on.
Chanda Smith Baker: It feels to me like as part of writing this particular book, it, it was probably cathartic and you probably had to confront.
A couple of fears yourself around it. Can you, can you share an example of what you had to confront related to fear and did you have to put your own theory to, to work? Uh, the inspiration. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Can you, can you share something about that?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: I can, and I, I participated in the question answering, if you will.
I had to as a part of the dissertation process, so my thoughts are contributed to your point, and I tried to, um, create a band of what. Are the fears that I experience, and on one continuum I talk about the easier ones. Not liking tomatoes, you know, just avoiding eating tomatoes and that. That's what I think fear can be.
It can be something that's as simple as something you're avoiding. I. On the other side of that continuum though, uh, there were three fears that I, uh, shared in the preface intentionally to get them out of the way so that we could have the conversation about all the other ones. And one of them is the point about my grandmother, she was dying.
And, and I am fearful of losing someone, not necessarily death itself, but losing people. Uh, the second thing is. Uh, really illness, dealing with that personally myself, and then illnesses that other people have had an illness. Not in the sense of, you know, you got a cold, but I am a breast cancer survivor.
And, or, you know, I've experienced other people that have had terminally ill, um, illnesses that they're dealing with. Then the final one, which is the hardest one of 'em all, is I grew up in a predominantly white high school and was, um, one of less, uh, diverse individuals in my high school. And as a result, often knew what it was like to be different and different in a way that people didn't treat me kindly.
And so. Um, not unique to me as a person of color or as a woman for that matter, but I do have, uh, anxiety around racism and being treated unfairly or being treated as though I'm other. And I have, um, uh, worked really hard throughout my life to not go there first and be very mindful of what are the things that I can do different.
If in fact someone has given me feedback, for instance, so that I can always challenge myself to perform harder. But there are also obvious, and you know this, there are obvious times when we know that we have experienced something that was racial or, or, um, based on our gender or some other, um, difference that we hold as people.
And so I, um, you know, have to make sure that I am, uh, gauging those appropriately. And when I do, uh, make sure that I. I, um, talk to the person about it or take the appropriate steps and processes, um, to get to a better resolution so that the next person who looks like me has a different experience, better experience than I did.
Chanda Smith Baker: I am like sort of smiling. 'cause you're, you're like, some of them are more obvious and I was thinking like obvious to who?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Right. Exactly. Who, who, who is an obvious to Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sort
Chanda Smith Baker: of the question of the hour that you know it is all the hours all, isn't that always obvious
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: to the person that says it?
Yeah, exactly. It's more obvious to you, but not the person that says it.
Chanda Smith Baker: I mean, do you think there'll be a point where, um, when people are treated unfairly, um, in the workplace based on identity, do you think it will become, do you think it's becoming more obvious as we talk about it more? I.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: You know, um, okay, so that's a deep question.
I know. I'm sorry. That's okay. So, so the first thing I would say is that, um, fear is the, uh, intersection between diversity and inclusion. And so our ability to be inclusive, um, gets intercepted by our comfort, our our level of, um, relation with another person and can what we feel as a connection and if, if we as individuals don't feel that connection.
We're, we don't engage as deeply as we might with someone else. You know, you and I will engage differently than someone that I might meet first time. And so, um, being aware of that right, and understanding of what are your own, um, anchors that you can use for yourself in order to get grounded so that you can have an authentic conversation is important.
But then getting back to your question, um, the ability for organizations or individuals to, uh, be inclusive, like at, at an all time high and, and not, um, hurting people, I hope for one day, but I, what I also am realistic in saying it might be impossible. To its fullest because, um, there we, we we're different.
And our ability to, to to, um, know what is offensive to someone else, uh, we don't always know. We also do have a responsibility though, to be wise about what, um, what on a general sense can be disrespectful for someone, right. Yeah, I've, I've often said that, um, your authenticity should not be trumped by integrity, right?
So you should always maintain, uh, the degree of respect and integrity while also being honest with someone,
Chanda Smith Baker: right? So on both sides of the equation, right? Um, I'm gonna make it a little black and white, but I, I don't intend to. But you know, you have people that are uncomfortable navigating spaces that are more diverse, and you have people that are diverse that.
I sometimes have shadowings navigating spaces that are less familiar with, um, how they show up as leaders. And in either case, we are leaders are taught to sort of hide what they are uncertain about or vulnerable, the vulnerability, right? Like there's no real place like you're conditioned in many respects to, to, um, suppress those things.
So what is the consequence of suppressing the not knowing or the fear that you have, particularly related to the topic we're talking, like what is the, what is the consequence of that in the workplace?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Yeah. Um, the consequence of that is trust, you know? So your direct reports will feel that you are not being authentic or that you are not being transparent If you are, um.
Not able to hold back those worries, doubts and fears. Um, without them visibly being able to tell. Typically, I, in my experience, people have been able to read and understand that you're, you're not. Telling completely how you feel. And, and you know, people are smart enough to know that you're human, obviously, and that all humans have emotions and reactions to certain situations.
And so as a leader, I think you have a responsibility to express how you are feeling about something. Uh, and however, being also encouraging when that those emotions are not positive emotions.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. And you, you talked about sort of the longstanding. Way of, of dealing with it. And so there is a book called The Fearless Leader that a lot of us, uh, do know and that refer to.
And, uh, your book is the myth of that, right? That it is a myth that you're leading with fear, not, you're not fearless, but you have fear. And in spite of it, you continue to show up every single day. What, how did you arrive at that title and why did you think it was important to, to identify that as, as a myth?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: I wanted to give people the comfort, uh, for the inner most deepest feelings that they are having, and, um, give them a okay nod that it's okay to have those feelings and also to give them the opportunity to express them. So throughout the book, there are opportunities for people to journal and one immediate step towards, uh, getting fearless, if you will, is to acknowledge that fear.
I, um, I'm also, um, on the other side of the spectrum of believing that there's not a ultimate level where you feel no fear at all. I think we say that and I think our fears lessen. However, over our lifespan, we ex, um, get worried. Have doubts, have fears about different things. And so, um, it's what I often refer to is that fear is a way or a mechanism for our own brains to make decisions about what to do and what not to do.
And, and that's where it can be useful, you know, that it's important to recognize what we are afraid of so that we can coach ourselves or come up with the tools and resources to, um, really. Equip ourselves to take on that object, that, that circumstance, that thing that's in front of us.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right? So fear can save your life.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: It sure can.
Chanda Smith Baker: It could, it could maybe say your job. So keep your keep. Sometimes you gotta keep your inside voice, sometimes you gotta,
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: I gotta keep it inside voice on you. You gotta coach yourself saying, maybe I shouldn't say it that way. Maybe
Chanda Smith Baker: I shouldn't say that because I'm afraid I won't be here afterwards.
Right, right. So that's a useful, um. Fear response. Yes. Right. Something alerts you that you probably don't need to do that thing. Say that thing, go that place. Right. Um, there are other things and ways that you mentioned, like public speaking where you're fearful and actually hold you back from leading in your fullest leadership voice.
Right. And, um. And that, I think is what you're talking about is having a different relationship with that type of fear.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Yes. And, and the, um, added distinction I will add too, is there's a difference between admitting what your fear is and guiding, dictating and leading people. Through fear, through the lens of fear, right?
Where you are scaring them. That's the type of fear we don't want in organizations, and that's the type of, I think, fearless, um, leader or fearless organization that folks are talking about. Or in particular Amy Edmondson, who I highly respect, uh, in terms of how she describes and talk about fearless organization or fearless leadership.
On the other side of that, I also would suggest I haven't had a conversation with her, but I would also suggest that having open dialogue about what are the emotions that we have as humans is a good place to be so that we know what they are and can work towards improving them or work, um, successfully while still holding those emotions.
Chanda Smith Baker: And Amy has done a lot of work. I've had the privilege of moderating a conversation with Amy. Yes, you have actually spending some time with her at Harvard, which I refer to her work quite a bit because it ultimately comes down to the word trust. Yes. Right. And, um, uh, one's, uh, ability one, uh, a culture right, that you wanna create and the more trusted it is, the more vulnerable it is.
Yes. Typically there's less mistakes, there's more honesty. There's, there's a business advantage of being able to create a space of, of honesty. It made me to some sense, vulnerability because another one of those fears there, I made a mistake, I'm afraid to say it. That's, and you don't say it then the organization doesn't learn from it.
It costs money, it costs you consequence to your job. Um, that's right. In some cases. And so I, I love the idea that you brought that into culture and that we sometimes see fear as something that is problematic. Or really in some of the work, um, that she has done. And certainly you are suggesting it in your book that it actually not only makes you a better leader, it meets, it means the teams that you are in charge of are also better and stronger.
And, um, if a organization adopts a culture of moving through it, naming it, reflecting on it, and creating action can actually be to a positive benefit.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Yes, 100%. And I say 100% in the sense that's I, I agree with you and I referred earlier to the Engage, explore, and Execute that can be used at an individual team and organizational level, so helping people to name what their fears are.
Helping them to identify where have they done well, where have they not done so well, and then creating a plan that they can execute and, and, um, it has profound, uh, results. I've, I've seen it as a result of coaching with people or teams and, and I've used it in my own, um, leadership from a HR organizational standpoint as well as a consultant.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. So you out here just like embracing fear and doing new stuff besides writing books right now? Or what else? Ah, tell me more. Tell
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: us more. Yeah. Yeah. So I am, um, working with leaders individually as well as teams on really helping them to, uh, create strategies for transformation. And I'm also, I'm doing that mostly in the healthcare space.
Um, while certainly I will expand amongst different industries, healthcare is my niche or my love. And then I also too work with nonprofit organizations,
Chanda Smith Baker: right? Uh, we keep evolving. When you were talking earlier, you were talking about fear in organizations. And so in this climate, in this culture. It feels like every other conversation I have, particularly in the social sector, has something to do with the political disruption that we're feeling.
And I don't care what side of the aisle you sit on, I think we feel that there is tension, um, in the environment or certainly concern about where the economy is going. Where is our foreign affairs going? Where's our financial health design a nation going and where and how are we gonna relate to each other?
And you know, in the social sector there's a lot of, lot of churn. And the way that even people ask me how I'm doing is like this little head, head tilt, um, thing, which is like mm-hmm. It is very disruptive in a lot of ways. But what happens if you're leading through fear? Like if that is your lens where like the sky is bawling.
Do you have anything that you can share in terms of what does that do to your body, to your leadership, to your organization? If your lens is sort of like everything is going to. What's the saying? Hell in a hand basket or something.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Right? Right. Um, it's restricted, right? So I think that you can restrict yourself, you can restrict your team members, and you can restrict as a result results that you will achieve.
And, and so, um, you know, it's getting back to some of the basics of really getting tuned into what are your values and what's your purpose, and using those. As guardrails to springboard, um, where you are questioning yourself as to whether or not you should do something, ask yourself, well, what are, what are my values and what's, why am I here?
Um, what am I trying to do? If you can reset on that, then you can really get, I think, directed, uh, whether it's through experience or having worked with individuals on this concept, it helps people to be able to get unstuck.
Chanda Smith Baker: Is there any other awakening that, that you have in the book that you wanna share?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: It actually is hidden in the title. Don't believe the hype. You don't have to be fearless to be a leader. You absolutely, you know, right? It's okay to have fear or emotions. And what you owe to yourself and people around you is to know what those emotions are and identify the tools, the resources, the partners, that can help you move forward so that you can have a successful outcome.
Uh, and, and the only way. You, I, I believe the only way you can have a successful outcome is if you have a plan. You know, what is your, what are your actions? And you learn actions through other people, through your past in terms of what has worked, what hasn't worked, and, and then you have to be willing to try again.
You know, so back to, to Amy's perspective of how do you reflect on the mistakes so that you can refine and, um, create another plan and try it again.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. And you said a little bit earlier, like the hamster wheel or the rat race and all the words that we use, and I think embedded in that language and what you just said is a, a big piece of not only understanding your fears but of leadership is creating space for reflection, which I imagine is why you have those reflective questions in the book.
What role do you think reflection has, particularly in moments that are, um, high tension? Because I think. When you're in the middle of, of a crisis or in the, when you're in the middle of something, it's very easy to like, keep your head down and keep moving. Mm-hmm. And so do you have any advice around the importance of, of reflection, particularly in moments where you feel like you don't have, you don't have time.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Yeah. Right. Exactly. 'cause it's, it's, um. It can be daunting to think about how do you do that in a, in a knee jerk circumstance, but not my own model. It's actually one I learned from, from Cook, Ross, Howard Ross. And that is, um, pause and, and it's a very quick exercise. Uh, pay attention to what it is that you're feeling.
Um, what are the. Things that you've done in the past, the actions that you've taken in the past, to understanding those actions or understanding other people's perspectives, to really seeking out, um, what beyond what you've already heard, what you've learned, and gaining that perspective from other people to really then execute, understand how do you evolve and, um.
Move forward. You have to do that pretty fast in those really quick circumstances. But it's worked. Um, for me, we, we, I had the benefit of being one of the many different facilitators, thought leaders that delivered his work in a multitude of different organizations. Um, and really helping people identify what are the steps that they can take when they're experiencing a situation where they might have otherwise done something different that was harmful.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right. Well, if they, they, the listeners, want to find out more about who you are, the book or the work that you're leading, where would they go?
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Ah, yes, there are two places. One is to go to www Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton. Don't confuse it with Jackson. That happens, but it's J-A-C-K-M-A-N Hampton. Uh, that's one place.
The other places Amazon, if you choose not to go to Amazon, you can go to Itasca, uh, book publishing company, though. That's the third place to go as well.
You didn't ask me, um, when is the next time I wanna see you and, and it would be great to have you on San Diego again.
You'd like to
Chanda Smith Baker: see me, Tonya, and hopefully in uh, San Diego.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Yeah, exactly. It would be great to have you in San Diego again.
Chanda Smith Baker: I appreciate you. Thank you for your leadership. Thank you for the thoughtfulness and um, for being on conversations with Chanda.
Dr. Tonya Jackman Hampton: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Souphak Kienitz: If you'd like to explore more content and join our community, find us at conversationswithchanda.com.
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