Souphak Kienitz: You are listening to Conversations with Chanda, where leadership gets real and personal. This is where we cut through the noise to confront the issues shaping our world from power and justice to the heart of community change. Hosted by Chanda Smith Baker.
Chanda Smith Baker: Lieutenant Governor, Peggy Flanagan. Welcome to Conversations with Chanda.
So happy to have you.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yes, you have been on the list to talk to because I, for one, I think your leadership journey, um, is amazing and I wanna learn more about it. And then secondly, we're in such an interesting place in this country, no doubt. And I have always experienced you as being very optimistic.
Honest, but optimistic. And I just wanna hear from you how you are experiencing the moments and maybe supporting other people in how they are also seeing it.
So, you know, you have, you know, made history as the highest ranking native woman in public service, and I've seen some of your moves, but have you always wanted to be in public service?
Like, can you just give us a window into like your leadership journey? Sure. I would love that.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Yeah. So as a little girl, I certainly didn't think like I wanna be the lieutenant governor when I grow up. That was like not on my list. Uh, I wanted to be an astronaut for a little bit marine biologist. Um, and then I wanted to be an early childhood special education teacher.
Um, and then I worked on Senator Wellstone's campaign in 2002 and everything changed. But up until that point, I, I was just raised by women and women who just were in leadership positions, so I kind of didn't know. Anything different. Um, my, my grandma was involved in party politics before it was like polite for women to be at the table.
Um, and she led, uh, wayside house back in the day and was a, you know, executive director of a, a nonprofit when there weren't, uh, many women, uh, doing that. My Auntie Peggy, who I am named after, she worked for Hennepin County in Chemical Health and managed a, a large team and, and did that work. My Auntie Mary was an executive director as well, um, of, uh, the YWCA of Wayside House of Perspectives.
She ran for a state senate in 1982. And so I just saw women leading and then my mom, who just was my hero and I watched her always say. Our job is to make sure that we're taking care of people. Even if we don't have a lot, there's always someone who has less than we do. Um, even though, you know, I think like back in the day we relied on Snap, right?
And during food drives at school, like my mom would take that can out of the cupboard, which now I know that we needed that can, right? But she always was like, I wanna like model for you and show you, right? That, that we always can do something to, to help other people. So for me, women just did things. They just led, they just took care of their families.
They showed up when needed. They stepped into, into roles that maybe society didn't necessarily like think they were ready for, but they're like, there's a problem. I have to, I have to help fix it. And so, um, that was, that's how I was raised and I'm so grateful for it because. Maybe had I known something different, I would've felt a little bit, a little bit more apprehensive, uh, about taking risks.
But I just saw women around me do it all of the time. Um, and I just is like, oh, this is, this is just how you show up for your family and for your community. Uh, and my hope is that, you know, with, uh, my daughter Sivan, that she sees some of that too, especially in the community that, you know, I always say like my number one job, my most important job is to be Shavonne's mom, right?
And to keep her safe. Uh, but then we also have a responsibility to the community. And so, modeling that, or that she has a responsibility to do that at school and with her classmates and, you know, with, with her friends. That hopefully, uh, I'm showing her a little bit of what the matriarchs of my family showed me, and it'll be, uh, a little bit easier for her too when she speaks up or steps out.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, I love that. When you were observing your family, the women in leadership, did you realize it at that time or was it just a matter of fact and then in reflection you realized that they were breaking barriers? Like when did, when did it become sort of the linkage that you just shared?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: I think growing up it just was what I saw and so I didn't really think anything of it, but it wasn't until I got older and started navigating a lot of these systems myself where I'm like, oof.
Um, and then was able to talk about. That must have been really hard, or you made it look so easy, right? Like a, you know, like a duck, right? Just zooming across the water and just knowing now how much, just how many challenges were there as well. Even like my Auntie Kathy, who also worked for Hennepin County, you know, she led, uh, some of the very first work on diversity, equity, and inclusion for the county.
Um, and like that was absolutely an uphill battle. It is a battle again. Um, but it is a battle worth fighting. And I just think I didn't, yeah, I didn't realize all the struggles that they had be. And part of that was, I think, a, a real gift in many ways, because it allowed me right to be able to say, I'm just gonna go for it.
I'm just gonna do it now. It meant, you know, sometimes you fall on your face and you can navigate those challenges, but really, um. As I've grown older, it has been nice to be able to have like some of the real, real conversations with my Aunties and like my Auntie Mary who ran in 1982 for the state Senate, right?
Um, as an out lesbian was like, that was an adventure. Like, and she real close. Um, but just what she experienced in that time and now, uh, almost 40 years, you know, 40 years later, over 40 years later, just how different things are. There still are things that certainly remain the same and you know, that, that we have to overcome, but just how courageous she was in bold.
She was to just put herself out there and just do
Chanda Smith Baker: the, do the damn thing. Do the damn thing. You know what I love about this story and, and the stories that come on here is that often when we're in the work, we're just working, we don't even know who's watching and who is being inspired by what we're doing.
Do you get a sense of that in your work now that you're inspiring or opening up people's minds and worlds to what's possible? Are you aware of that?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: I'm aware of that when, uh, young people come up to me and we can have some of these conversations, especially I think, you know, well a lot of these systems weren't created by us or for us, uh, but in many ways were created to silence or eliminate us and certainly keep us on the outside.
So even things like speaking Ojibwe or wearing a ribbon skirt and a blazer into a space, young women will come up to me and say like, that matters 'cause I know I'm supposed to be here. And it's so simple. Acts I think of just taking up a little space of being yourself that I think, uh, goes a really, a really long way.
And that's important to me. I sometimes I get, um. I get interesting, uh, feedback, quote unquote, um, from folks about how I dress. Or, you know, people say, oh, that's not what a lieutenant governor is supposed to, is supposed to dress like. I'm like, well, I am a lieutenant governor. This is what we dress like, right as we are sort of seeing, um, more women, more indigenous women, um, or women of color in like leadership roles.
It's gonna look different and like, that's all right. Uh, because, you know, I think democracy functions best when it accurately reflects the community it seeks to represent. And so that's how we get better results is by having, you know, more diverse voices and perspectives at the table. And, you know, for my daughter, her reality is totally different than mine, right?
Like, I saw these women leaning, but I certainly didn't see native women in a. Elected office. And now she's like, oh, you know, I've got Auntie Deb who is the secretary of the interior, Auntie Cherise, who's in Congress, and like Yeah. You know, big whoop, my mom's a lieutenant of governor. Right? Like, what will be possible for her?
Sort of just seeing that, my hope is that she, along with others, are able to just walk into a room and be more confidently, you know, their full selves because they have seen others who've done that. And if I'm doing my, my job, right. That is, that's, that's what's possible.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. That's the job for sure. So we just had a good DEI lesson.
Mm mm-hmm. Um, and I say that because you, you mentioned the reversal of DEI and, and some of the things that we're experiencing right now. And part of what it is, is representation. And even in the, in the air quote, the feedback that you get is someone experiencing something that what they define is, is normal or acceptable, which wasn't inclusive of all people, all women.
Mm-hmm. Diversifying from whatever their experience is. And so how are you grappling with this reversal? Like do you have any words of wisdom or concern about what this is doing or perhaps what it could inspire in a moment like this? Mm-hmm.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Well, I would say, I would say this, I try to use the full phrase, right, and actual words, right, of diversity, equity, and inclusion, because I think it matters, right?
Diversity is diversity of identity, experiences, expertise, and ultimately. As someone who has been an organizational leader, I know that that helps me get better results. Uh, if we just have the same folks at the table, we get the status quo. And that doesn't help us innovate. That doesn't help us grow or lead, I think, in the way that we need to, for the, for the future.
Um, inclusion I think means just like being welcoming and creating environments where people like wanna participate and, and be a part of it. And equity, I think means access. Those are all things I think that folks, regardless of your, uh, experience or background like want, and we can get aligned around.
And I think like right now in our politics. When there are folks who are taking advantage of using that somehow in a way to, to divide us, it's essentially saying like we all have to compete over like the same piece of pie instead of being clear that there are folks who benefit from us all competing over that same piece of pie instead of coming together and knowing that we could have the whole damn pie if we just work together.
So we are certainly going through growing pains, but I think it is also a moment for us to just get really clear about like what does this actually mean? Right? What are folks telling us this means and what does this actually mean? I think it means like innovating, being welcoming and getting better results for our organizations, our communities, our state as a whole, our country.
And that's, I think, how we have to talk about it. And we shouldn't. I think we have to shy away from it when we've seen. I've seen things get better, right. Um, as a recovering executive director, right? Like I know that if everybody who worked for me had the same skillset or the same identity, that would not be of service to the, the people our organization served.
So I think we just have to get clear. And for the companies, I think about like folks like General Mills who are like super clear. This continues to be a top priority for us because we've seen it help us get good results like we should. We should lean into that. And I think that is something that I think Minnesota's kind of always strived to be about and we should continue to work towards it.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, I think for sure they've expressed it.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Yes. What it looks like an implementation
Chanda Smith Baker: is, I think, I think we've been challenged in implementation, but I believe that we know the polite things to say as Minnesotans. Uh, you said, Wellstone's name, you say his name often, I think in his way to honor and to recognize his impact broadly, and then certainly in your life.
And Paul Wellstone was a person, but in many ways it was a bit of a movement. There was a movement around him. How would you describe that? Because there are people that are like, I'm part of, well, like it's like a affinity group or something.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Yeah, I mean it's, you know, I truly was like driving past the Wellstone for Senate office my senior year of college and I was like, you know what?
I like Paul Wellstone. I'm just gonna go check it out. And it was one of those moments in my life where it, it was a pivot, like something really changed. Uh, and I walked in and there were like seven people who said, welcome, come on in. Are you here to volunteer? And I was like, I guess, and I stuffed envelopes, uh, which is a thing we used to do, which we don't do anymore, um, with, uh, complete strangers for like two hours.
And then I just kept going back to do what needed to be done. And towards the end of the campaign was working on our urban native, uh, organizing work. And it was a space where so many communities felt like he was ours. Right? Like, felt that connection. And even if people didn't agree with him all the time,
Chanda Smith Baker: yeah,
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: they knew that he was authentically himself.
And they could trust that. And I think that is something that's really missing in our politics now, but out of, and it was completely devastating to lose Senator Wellstone and his wife Sheila, their daughter, Marsha Mary, and Will it, it just, uh, it was a lot. And out of that grew Wellstone action that for many, many years, continued this work of training organizers, teaching folks to, to run for office work on campaigns.
And I still, when I travel across the country, someone will be like, oh my gosh, you are my trainer right in Kentucky in 20 2006. And now they're like doing really amazing things. So it's fun to see that, that really grow, uh, out of, out of that movement. And there's now a lot of folks who don't know who. I know Wall Stone, uh, was, or I would say is, um, and I think that legacy though, continues to, to live on in so many leaders who are part of that campaign, you know, who decided to, to get involved in politics because they felt a connection to Paul Advocates.
Just so many, so many people. And in this moment, I think the thing that, that I'm really trying to do that is connected to, to what that campaign taught us and what Paul taught us is that you should try to leave communities better off than you found them with less infrastructure and leaders who can continue to do this work, regardless of whether or not you are there.
And you know, that is my friend Naomi calls it an exit strategy. Where she's like, if you miss a meeting, does everything fall apart? Right? She's like, or have you created the conditions where there are more people who are able to step in and to continue to lead? And I think, you know, we can build campaigns, of course it's a winning, you know, it's a way to win.
But it also is like, how do we then keep winning? How do we keep making sure, right, that we have folks who know how to lead on comms or put field together, who can dig deep into policy work, who were volunteers, who now are campaign managers, right? Like that's also, uh, what we're doing. And I think that's just so needed and necessary in this moment, especially as we're pushing back against folks who would rather see us go away or have our rights taken away, that we need to build something that is long lasting and that's grounded in community instead of.
Electoral strip mining where it's like the circus comes to town. We tell people how important they are, and then we don't see them for two years or four years or whatever. Right. Our folks get religion the Sunday before election day, or my community decided to hit the powwow trail right in August before the election.
They're just as, uh, we should have higher expectations because that is then what helps us grow the work in these movements. But that, I think is a legacy of, of Senator Wellstone and what he, what he taught us and, and what we're trying to do.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right. So I'm an alum of Wellstone Action. Mm-hmm. And I was sitting here, I'm like, were you, my teacher was, I think, I feel like it was you and Jeff Hayden.
Yeah. Yeah. I bet. I bet we did. I didn't The camps here. Mm-hmm. That's wild. I'm like, I, you know, I feel like I've led like nine lives, like, right. Like when I'm talking, I'm like, wait, I did that. I think that's right. You don't know who's inspiring and you don't know what you're seeding. And I like this idea of an exit strategy or for sure, one of how do you make the community better, but that includes not like the people around you.
How do you create space and how do you move it forward in, in that way? Peggy, what do you think the state of, or how would you describe the state of our democracy right now?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Ooh. It is fraught. It is fractured, and it is worth fighting for. You know, a little earlier you said that you've known me to be a optimistic person.
Appreciate that. Yeah. I think I'd also talk a lot about like, like hope. Like hope feels like a. Like an action, like you have to participate in it. I think about one of my mentors, Jim Wallace, who one of the quotes that stays with me is he says, hope is believing in spite of the evidence and watching the evidence change.
Yeah.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: And I think that that is one of the moments that we are in with our democracy, that when I reflect back and I think of, you know, it's only a hundred years ago last year, that native people were given the right to vote. And then it wasn't until even in some instances within my lifetime are very close to it, that like folks actually Right.
Had access. Right. And the ability to vote. And so much of that is being rolled backwards as we speak. But we have to, I think one of the things we're in this moment where we have to actually get beyond just voting. Like that matters, but then what happens? And how are we shaping the kinds of things that we wanna see?
And being able to speak to some of those things, like, I think about every time we go to church, uh, and we go to Ascension, uh, on the north side, and every time we go to church and we drive past V3, my mom's like, oh, mom, are you gonna talk about V3 again? I'm like, I love it. But it's, it is one of these things where.
It is an example of what can happen when we have folks participating in our democracy, right? One of the things that we've been able to do, and I was able to do as Lieutenant Governor was push for equity and bonding and having access to capital for a organizations led by and for communities of color.
Because even when I was in the legislature, it felt like there was these backroom deals and handshakes that were happening, and I would like, we don't even know what's going on in there. And our communities didn't necessarily have access when we are clearly doing incredible work, right? Like we also need access to capital to be able to expand and to thrive.
And when Siobhan gives me a hard time about driving past V3 and I talk about it, it's because I was like, my girl, I want you to see, I. This is what it can look like when you speak up, when you work with, together with people in community and with your allies to get something done. It looks like this.
Mm-hmm. Right? Um, or it looks like, uh, juxta, right? Like there are equity and bonding dollars, equity and capital dollars there, and all of the entrepreneurs and all of the small businesses that have grown out of that space is incredible. And so that I think is like when we talk about democracy, like let's talk about what it has helped us achieve.
There are so many folks who want people to make themselves small in this moment. That doesn't serve anybody. Right. Like we can dream big and we should be dreaming big and talk about like what does that actually look like? That feels like the thing that will help to save our democracy. Instead of just saying like, is bad.
Like, no, it's bad, right? Like, and that's okay and we can fight and we can push back, you know, against Donald Trump and the powers that be that do not want us to have that access and we have to talk about what we're for. So, you know, entrepreneurs growing small businesses, people having a dream and being able to put that together and actualize that are young people being able to walk into any classroom and know that they will be seen and heard and valued, uh, and invested in it means that some person behind a desk doesn't decide whether or not I live or die because they're approving treatment that my doctor has already prescribed for me.
Or the fact that Congress has approved the lowering prices for 10 prescription drugs for folks on Medicare. Like that's great, but like, why not all of them? And why not for everybody? So there are just, I think these pieces that we get to talk about, what does it mean to have a functioning democracy? It means that people have an ability to dream a bit, achieve those dreams, and then continue to build.
And I know that there are folks who fought for that, who cleared a path for so many of us, and we gotta do that work again. Right? When I would complain or be like, mom, things are hard. She a lot of tough love from, oh you, you think it's hard now? That's right. And she'd be like, I prepared you your whole life for this moment.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Right. And she's like, now your job is to figure out how do you prepare Siobhan for this moment? I think that's right. Like it is incredibly difficult now. And we have a lot of tools. We have people who have shown us the way, right. And like that resiliency and that need to like keep coming back. And maybe a little bit of my hope and optimism is also that I'm just stubborn.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. I mean, I'm with you. I mean, you know, for a while everyone that was sort of around me were like, Hey, how are you? And I'm like, I am good. Right. I am actually good. I actually believe that we've had harder times in this country. Right. I actually believe that we hold power as long as we don't give it away.
Yep. And I believe in our ability to innovate and to make it through and to navigate. And you brought up church like there, there's nothing new under the sun. It's, it's right there. That's right. And so I believe, I believe in all of those things and I think as you were talking. One of my questions was around what do you see as the greatest threat to our democracy?
And where I was sort of landing as you were talking, is resignation. Yes. That could be one of the biggest threats. Like we can externalize it and believe that someone is supposed to do something for us, but resignation is a threat. And I don't know what other threats you see, but I mean, folks that are leaning in, whether or not it is whatever the, the, you know, stuffing envelopes are, it doesn't have to be a big task, just do something in service to
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: That's right.
Yeah. I do. I agree with you. I think resignation is the, is the biggest threat. Just throwing up your hands and, you know, and there's a lot of reasons for that. And so, like, I wanna also acknowledge that power. Yeah. Right. Like it is. There is a lot of, there's just like a lot of trauma and just
Chanda Smith Baker: there is, look, sometimes you gotta sit down for a few months.
I sat down. Right. Like, I, like I am not opposing sitting down and get what you need. Yep. But there's a point where you gotta get up. That's right.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: And knowing that if you are, that it's okay to tag out and that there's other folks who are gonna keep going and you can tag back in. And that we actually have to create conditions so that that is okay.
Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause right now, if people are just like grinding it out and driving themselves into the ground, that is not helpful for these kinds of movements that we need to sustain. Or as folks say, like, what is the one thing that I can do? There's not just one thing. And in fact, um. There are multiple tools in our toolbox, right?
We like can make five calls, we can send emails, you can protest outside of the office of someone you wish was doing better. You can take to the streets, you know, there are many you can run for office yourself, right? You can create safe spaces for people to just gather and be in community with one another.
You can vote. You can vote. That's right. So there are, I don't wanna just give away power. Yeah. And I think that's part of the challenge, but also that sometimes it feels so overwhelming to folks that they're like, oh, I have to be an expert in everything. You don't. You just have to be an expert in your own life and how like you are being impacted or someone you love and care about is being impacted than this woman.
And like, lift that up. Tell that story. Those narratives are way more powerful than any other. Did you read this article I sent you? Right? Like what about this? This flyer? These facts. Figures and statistics like connect. We have since time of Memorial, we have learned and been moved through storytelling.
It is one of our most powerful tools and I think it is foundational for everything else that, that we need to do. And it is the antidote to that resignation 'cause folks feel at stake in it.
Chanda Smith Baker: So you're Lieutenant governor of the state of Minnesota, which means that you are in fact responsible for people that you may not agree with.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. How to balance that. How do you ensure that you are, uh, saying true to your values and inclusive?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: For sure. So one of the things that I love about this job is that very thing that we don't have to agree on everything for me to be able to represent you, but also to find common ground for there be, you know, things that we can work together on.
I remember when I was first running for Lieutenant Governor with, with Governor Walls, we were making these calls and I called this guy and he was like, I was with you and I was with Walls till he put you on the ticket. And I was like, Hmm, okay. And, uh, you know, in typical Minnesota fashion, I was like, that's interesting.
Can you say more about that? Right? Mm-hmm. So he said, well. I, uh, he's like, I live up on the range. And he's like, I don't think we have a lot in common, blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, let me stop you there. You know, one of the most important votes I ever took when I first came into to the legislature was to extend unemployment benefits to, to minors who are, who are out of work.
And I said, I got a lot of grief about that from some folks in my party. Uh, 'cause there was some language in the bill that they didn't, they didn't love. And, uh, I remember one, uh, person in particular said, it surprised me that that's how you voted as a native woman, which, uh, was again, I'll use that.
Interesting. Oh, that was interesting, wasn't
it?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Mm-hmm. And I said to him, I said, listen, like I remember what it was like coming up when my mom would say, oh, I ate at work, or, oh, I'll just eat something after you go to bed. I'm not hungry right now. Only until I became Shavonne's mom right. Did I then realize that we just didn't have enough food in the house.
And so I said to him, I said, listen, I voted in favor for that bill even though it had, you know, language that maybe, you know, wasn't a hundred percent what I would've voted, what I was in favor of. Right. But the core value of that was making sure that kids had food in their bellies and that parents could keep food on the table.
Um, and that people held their dignity, right? And it got real quiet. And he was like, I was one of those guys. Um, and then he was all in. And so I think that those are the moments where I. We can lean in a little bit more and listen, people may have assumptions, uh, about me and my job and has been for, you know, the last many years to show up and listen to people.
And it is one of the, one of the greatest gifts in this moment is when people will share deeply, deeply personal things with me. And then I have the honor of holding those things.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Right now, I truly believe that regardless of political party or assumptions you have about me or other folks that like, it's literally all of us versus extremist billionaires in this moment.
And when it comes to issues of family, economic security, like those are the things we are all in the same boat, right? For the most part. And those are the things we can lead into like. Access to healthcare, high quality, affordable childcare, making sure that social security is still there, right? Things like Medicaid.
Medicaid was my healthcare as a kid who had really bad asthma coming up, and I am alive because of it today. And there are so many folks who are impacted by it. Even if don't use Medicaid yourself. I was up in East Grand Forks having one of these kitchen table conversations, and there is one nursing home in that community.
If Medicaid takes a hit, that nursing home closes, and those are people's parents and grandparents. There are folks who work there. It is a critical part of this economy, and so we are all connected in this moment, and I think we need more people who understand what it's like to struggle to be in positions of leadership, to be able to bring that perspective.
To the table so that we are able to make better decisions for, you know, working folks. And, and again, like we might not agree on everything, but those are some of the things that bring us together and bring us to the same table. Oh, I agree.
Chanda Smith Baker: You got me thinking about these three people on Facebook mm-hmm.
That every day I'm like, I should just unfriend because this just feels so extreme. Yeah. And then every time I think it, I think, but even in that I know that we have things that we, we must have things that we agree upon to be connected in the first place. Right. That it's really important for me to understand where other people are at, particularly if I'm not there.
Right. Just to, to understand it and not agree. And so we have serious sort of cancel culture. And I would say that it is fairly courageous to stay at the table. Like Facebook is not a thing, right? Like, I mean, it's not super courageous to do that 'cause it's so passive. But in the work every day, in conversations with people in the spaces that you're in that maybe have ideas that feel more extreme, I think that there is professionalism.
I think there's other things that have to come around that, but what type of courage do you think is required right now? Is it, is it extraordinary or is it the same sort of courage that existed before? Like in some ways it feels more complicated and more like more is required, but I can't quite get to it myself on.
Is it more or is it just more often? Does it look different or is it just more daily?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Mm-hmm. That's a great question. I think, I think like two things come to mind. One is my, my dad who would say to me, he's like my girl, I wanna burn the system down. And you wanna change it from the inside out. We need both, right?
And I think like this is one of those moments where there are absolutely things that are not working for many of us that we gotta get rid of, right? And like need to continue to be participants and sit at this table 'cause we got work to do. And like we can't just say like, we're gonna throw all this out without saying, and here's what it looks like to build something that that works for people.
But I'd also say, I think about the story that I was told over and over again growing up, that my great grandfather. Was left on the front lawn with both of his legs broken for working to organize a union of sewer workers in Minneapolis, right? Like that was courage. And
it means that we're willing to take risks on behalf of others. And you can still be afraid, right? Like you can still be afraid of, of what might happen and what could occur or what will, what will people think or, but I think we still have to show up. And here's the deal. What I also think though is that it is okay to take care of yourself, right?
And to keep yourself safe. And that that is also something that is incredibly important in this moment. But being able to take risks and speak out and do so. A company of other people or being very clear about, like, my faith is foundational to how I use my voice when I take risks. 'cause I'm pretty clear Yeah.
That, you know, in Matthew 25, we gotta show up for the least of these. Like, that was really clear and it is not always popular, but I can check myself right in, in, uh, in that way. And so relying on those things that are foundational, like if it is our faith, it is the, the, the stories or the legacy of, you know, our families and the, the fights that, that they fought.
Um. If it is being like an Anish and knowing all of the grandmothers and Aunties and my mom and others who like, love me into existence and honoring that work that they did, like finding that thing that you can have your like strong footing upon to be able to do the work, I think is what allows us to be courageous or like, yeah, as a mother, like I'm gonna, I'm a mama bear and I will go down fighting for the people that I care about and communities and people having opportunity, like finding your thing that you can again, just like get your footing and ready to like show up and push back and speak.
Truth to power, I think is, is really key and critical to sustain ourselves for the work ahead and to sustain movements over time for what it is that we have to build.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Are you clear on how your native values show up in your leadership?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Mostly 'cause my Aunties hold me accountable. So my Ojibwe name is Gizhiiwewidamookwe, which means 'Speaks in a loud and clear voice woman'.
And so there is accountability in my name. Yeah. And so if I am speaking up and how I am using my voice, uh, really, really matters. I would say the idea that we are caring about our children. Yeah. Our elders. Um, that we are thinking about how many, many generations into the future will be impacted by the decisions that we make.
Now those are things certainly that I incorporate, and one of the lessons that I have learned from my, and for my namesake and from my, my teachers is that we pray for other people. Like you, pray for the people. There are enough people who are praying for you, and your job is to pray for others. And that is, that is a lesson that I am constantly learning and relearning.
And that is, I think, one of the most important things that's guiding me in, in this moment. And I am so lucky to have just real, like, tender loving individuals in my life and my native Aunties, who in some ways give me, who love me in the way that I'm supposed to be loved.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Who love me through a lens of accountability.
Who love me when I am feeling afraid and vulnerable, who give me a soft place to land so that I can go back and do that work. But that's also just something I know is that native women have been nurturing our communities have been holding our communities together for a very long time. And that women, generally, women of color, indigenous women, immigrant women, we've all been leaders since time of Memorial.
It is just the rest of society that may be catching up a bit to, to us and sort of using those skills. I think. I think it is a really powerful moment that we are in where it isn't simply the fight, but it also is like how are we also loving each other? Having that accountability in this moment for what we need to do.
'cause it's taken care of us for a really long time.
Chanda Smith Baker: It has. I just recently wrote something and I don't know, I've been writing a little bit more and thinking about the deep roots that I have in Minnesota and saying that my ancestors fight is in my DNA.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: That's right.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right. What they fought for, I've benefited from, but most of what they did is undocumented.
Right. It's not even fully shared within the family. Mm-hmm. Much less in a book, much less on street names. Mm-hmm. On the blocks on the, in the places in which they made a difference. So I think that, yeah, it is in some ways other people coming into the understanding of what leadership and struggles look like for communities outside of their own.
But I think it's important to understand that the stripping. Of the truth in the storytelling when we're talking about again, how we represent impacts us on an individual level.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: That's right.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right. I tell people, that's why I like going to Atlanta other places. 'cause it's, oh man, I can see it everywhere I go.
Like, it feels like home. I don't live there. Right. Um, and I'm fighting every day for this place to be and feel more inclusive. So I thought that in the importance of taking time within your families to share the story of struggle and of achievement, it is critical for us to document in whatever way we can because it allows for us to live more fully in our leadership.
The other thing I was thinking is leadership is just not easy. It is just. Ing hard. Right. And it is complicated and people aren't always nice. People that you love and look like you sometimes can act up with you. I mean, it is. And that's like the hardest. Yeah. Right. It's a rollercoaster man. And um, so for folks that know, and I, I specifically remember when I knew I was just waking up at night, like I knew that there was more for me to do than what I was leading into.
Right. And like it was the voice, it was, it was God, it was faith, it was whatever people wanted to find it. But I felt the draw to more, and I was trying to figure out why I was holding myself back. So if anyone is listening and they are feeling in their heart and their mind, in their gut and their soul, that they should step into more leadership and something is holding them back, what would you tell them?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: I would say to take a risk that leadership requires risk and that if they feel that little voice, like it might, might just be your soul crying out. Right. And like you should, you should listen to it. I think so often one of the things that we get hung up on is occupation. Mm-hmm. And really like the work is in your vocation.
And so if you can think about that piece, right, and what is it I'm being called to do or move to do? What's that thing you lose track of time doing? Right? That like, you might be tired at the end of the day, but it still fills you up. Like that's probably your thing. That's probably your gift. That is probably the place where you need to, to lean in.
And that you can tell other people about it, right? Like, I'm gonna step out, I'm gonna try this. Like, I don't know if it's gonna work, but like, I just, I need you to know so that you come on this journey with me. So it doesn't feel like you have to do it all by yourself. And sometimes there's folks who ask you like that there's like more that they think you are capable of doing than you do yourself.
Like, that has happened to me a handful of times throughout my life, right? And it's like, oh, okay, well I'll give it a shot. And this moment in our country's history, like, this is the time. If you feel like you are being pulled to something, boy, answer that call. '
Chanda Smith Baker: cause like, answer the call, man. I, I, I affirm.
Yeah. I totally affirm that. Yeah. And Peggy, okay, so tell me this. So there are times where we get confronted with things we did not know were coming, we have no plan for it. Maybe someone we called in for support is not supportive. But I know that everything that I've gone through, I've never felt dropped.
It might be difficult, but like people show up from unexpected places. Like even if it's just like I see you says you're doing a good job, or I know this is a hard moment for you, but please know we are watching you and you're inspiring. Like you just don't know where it's gonna come from. Right. And I, I'm saying it because I think sometimes we want a nice, neat plan, uh Right.
For it to move forward because we wanna figure out do we have all the dots connected and that we wanna try and solve for everything. You're not gonna solve for everything 'cause you don't even know what's coming. That's right. But it's worth it.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: That's right. And I think, you know, one of the things that I try to do is to go to the balcony.
When, like it, when things are messy or hard or like the folks that you thought were going to show up for you do not. Then there are people, you're like, oh, unexpected folks who show up and you're like, oh, hello. Right? Like, I did not see this coming. Right. Um, like where help shows up either. So I think it's like going to the balcony and being like, what is actually happening here, I think is one of the, the tools that, that has served me when like, things are just like a absolute hot mess and everything is on fire.
But I also just wanna name, you know, that you do this for other people all of the time. I watch you do this, you have done this for me. When things are hard, just like even being seen. Goes such a long way. And I remember when I was a brand new ed, brand new executive director, you and Trista took me out to lunch.
Me and Trista Harris took me out to lunch. And you were like, we've got you. Like, this is the place where you can ask questions that you cannot ask anybody else. Right? Like you created that space. And still to this day, one of the things that I carry with me from that meeting is that like there are places and there are people where you can be like, help, like I, I don't know how to do this.
Right. Or um, you said to me like, I never take a meeting with anybody without an agenda. It changed my entire life. You literally said to me, you're like, I don't care if somebody writes it on a post-it note and slides it across the table, like, we just need an agenda for the meeting so that it serves you and it serves me and we are not wasting each other's time.
That's right. Like what a gift. And so like I just wanna, in this moment also just say thank you to you for that. Because I come back to that constantly. It has helped me be a more like clear leader. It has helped me manage people better. It has helped me just like also acknowledge my time is valuable. And I just like, I watch you do that all the time.
So just an answer to that question that you just had, you do that consistently and have just modeled that for so many people, myself included. And then I get to, I get to do that work in a way, in a way too. And so I don't know if, and I'm gonna just take this time to say like how impactful when I was like brand new in that role and leaning an entire organization for you to be like, hello, I see you.
I got you. It's all right. This is hard. It feels hard. 'cause it's hard and that's okay. Really, really matters because I think in this era of. Social media and like everybody having their little cheesecake smile and all this stuff. It feels like we don't get to struggle or that like you can't share that struggle or when things are hard and like you don't show up fully formed.
Right. If it is legacy of your own, your own family, and how you have come to this moment and what that has looked like, your own struggle as as an individual, that we can talk about that mess sometimes too. 'cause it allows us to be vulnerable, connect with others, but also just get better results if we don't have to keep making the same mistakes all the time, or just not feel so isolated and alone in those moments.
Chanda Smith Baker: That's right. I also think that it's important to give people space to evolve. Mm-hmm. Right? Because people are like, well, you know, 10 years ago they had this opinion. I'm like, whoa. Okay. I bet you, I imagine that they've grown, I've imagined that they have seen more life. Yeah. I imagine that it's been informed by more people, and I do think that that is one of the things that can keep us, um, in a stronghold, is people that are around us not giving us room to both say what we need to have the struggle and to evolve.
And, uh, I just think those are just such important, uh, lessons. Absolutely. And I, I thank you for saying and sharing that time. That was a, that was a special moment, and so I appreciate you saying that. It's just true. Yeah. The other thing as we get ready to close is that you have said a lot of people's names as we've talked, and why do you do that?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Because people need, well, one, we have to, I think, show gratitude. And I am aware, I am painfully aware that I did not get here all by myself. And that any policy victory, any good thing that has happened in community has all happened because there are people like multiple fingerprints right on, on all of those winds.
And we are in the, I think especially in politics is really hard because there's this idea and I. Chafe against it like that, you have to say, this is what I did. This is what I did, this is what I accomplished. And in, in my community, like leadership is a circle and you step in when needed and you step out and then allow other folks to step in and that nobody is more important than anybody else.
And so this idea in politics of being like I did this, I think is, is sometimes hard, right? When I think about all the folks who help to, to move policies, right? There are so many people, or like, like the African American Family Preservation Act, for example. Rena Moran loved that policy into existence and it passed when she was no longer there.
But her fingerprints were all over it. And it was then lovingly handed off. Right. To Representative Agbaje. Right. And Senator Champion, who also helped to move that and hold that. And of course, like all of the advocates who worked on that for so long to get it where it needed to be, that we should celebrate those as collective victories.
'cause I think that is so powerful in this moment where it's like, I I, I like we is where it's at.
Right. We But where it is,
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: yeah. Where we're just, where when we are discouraged is when there's one person saying, y'all can't have that, or you can't have that, or you can't go there. This isn't for you. When we can talk about those collective victories that we have had, you can talk about your role in it and, and why that mattered, but that we can have collective ownership over those things.
Those are the things I think that help us to realize like this work is for the long term. We don't always get wins overnight, but we are building and we are paying, we are paying it forward, we are passing it forward. We are passing it on. And that that is the work that has happened in so many of our neighborhoods, families, communities for so long.
And the beauty of those stories and talking about the we, that's power.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: And that's where, especially in this moment, that's how we rebuild and protect our democracy. That is how we dream bigger about what it is that we want for our families and our neighborhoods. And it is ultimately like how we win.
Chanda Smith Baker: I agree that is a good place. But I do have one more. Yeah. Okay. So because you also say your daughter's name, you say Siobhan's name. And if I think about the generations that we've been talking about, like the Aunties and the grandmas and the mothers that were working, it was not a thing to be talking about being a mom at work.
No. And that has been passed along very clearly and we still don't have enough space to, to lead fully.
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: Mm-hmm.
Chanda Smith Baker: But here you are, Lieutenant Governor and you bring her, right? You share your motherhood stories, you center motherhood in your work. Why?
Lt. Gov. Peggy Flanagan: It is a core part of my identity and it is my important, most important title.
When I'm walking through the hall and I'll hear someone say, oh, that's Siobhan's mom. Right? Not that's the Lieutenant Governor. Not that's Peggy Flanagan, but that's Siobhan's mom. I'm like, yes, I am. And I just think about, I. Folks will say, oh, it's so nice that you bring her places. Like let's be real.
Sometimes it's like, we do not have childcare right now. This is a necessity. And or like she would come up and be at meetings, right? With a blanket on the floor and toys and like different people would pick her up and walk around the room. Like I also have a baby that was raised in community and that's, and that's okay.
'cause that's how it was for a really long time. And I think so often the issues that are foundational for us to be able to have economic opportunity, not just for women before, literally everybody, are those very issues. So when we don't talk about motherhood. It then discourages us from talking about childcare, which is the backbone of the economy, the workforce behind the workforce.
It discourages us from talking about paid family and medical leave, which is we should not have to choose between a paycheck and caring for a new child or a sick, a sick loved one, or ourselves. It's things like just making sure that we have access to healthcare when we need it, or that if I am black or indigenous, that the birth outcome that I have is not different right from my white counterpart.
Like those are the things that we have to be willing to talk about, and when we shy away from motherhood, if that is part of our identity, that feels inauthentic. And I think that all of these things that are just grounded in economic security for families. Are the things that I have learned from the way that I came up and how I was raised by a single mom and now as a mom myself, are even more important for me to fight for.
And I watched my mom do miracles with so little every day. I'll tell you one last story. When we are fighting to increase the minimum wage in 2014, it seemed pretty bleak. And this was like a hard time when it was. We literally had Democrats in charge of the House senate and the governor's office, and it was like, why is this so hard?
And why is like asking for nine 50 and then having it be indexed to inflation, right? As costs go up, like the minimum wage should go up. I called my mom after, I was like watching Shaban just sleep in her, in her crib, and she said, well. She said, I certainly wish that there were folks who are fighting for us the way that you're fighting right now.
And she said, I wouldn't want anybody to give up on us. And it was like the kick in the pants that I needed for the next meeting to like go into that room and be like, absolutely not. Right. My mama told what, right. My mama said, you know, but like, that's just like, I think if we leaned into more of that stuff, we connect with more people and would be able to get those better results.
And these are things that across the world, right, like highly successful countries and democracies have implemented, we can do the same thing here. We just have to speak up a little bit more about it and um, not feel like we have to deny. A whole part of our ourselves when it is truly the foundation for our entire economy and, and future.
Right on. Thank you so much. Thank you. This was really, uh, it was a different kind of conversation and I was here for it. I appreciate you.
Chanda Smith Baker: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. Peggy Flanagan
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