Chanda Smith Baker 0:01
On this episode of conversations with Chanda, I am joined by two powerful voices who are challenging the status quo and lighting the path for the next generation of fearless change makers. Marissa Williams, CEO of Girl Scout river valleys, is reimagining what leadership looks like for girls, and doing it with clarity, compassion and conviction and Luvvie Ajayi Jones, four time New York Times, Best Selling Author, cultural truth teller and professional troublemaker, is bringing her signature wisdom, wit and courage to the mic together, we dive into what it means to raise bold girls and to use our platform to spark transformation from Girl Scout troops to global stages. This conversation is full of truth, laughter and the kind of energy that hopefully moves people to action. Let's get into it.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones and Marisa Williams, I'm so delighted to have you on conversations with Chanda. It is a great way to start my day, and hopefully to the listeners, it will be an awesome way for you to get some new energy, get inspired, get the fuel we need for the difficult times that we're sitting in. So welcome.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 1:18
Thank you.
Marisa C. Williams 1:19
Thank you for having us. Chanda.
Chanda Smith Baker 1:21
absolutely.
I would just love you to just provide an introduction for our listeners on how you describe yourself. And Marissa, I start with you,
Marisa C. Williams 1:33
awesome. So when I think about what I want people to know, I want people to know that several years ago, I put it out in the atmosphere that I'm trusting God to be ridiculous with me, and he has shown up. So, so, so good. And so it's not about the rented title that I have love the fact that I get the honor to serve as the CEO of Girl Scouts river valleys, but it's really about the character that I can leave people with and being able to uplift women and girls and really show them that there is provision when you show up as your unapologetic, authentic self. And he's been able to connect me with people who truly believe that, and then we're able to amplify each other's work. And so I'm just so excited to be a part of this conversation today and just be with other dynamic women. So thank you,
Chanda Smith Baker 2:34
Luvvie.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 2:35
Oh my gosh, I love that. What I do is I give people the tools, the courage and the words to take transformative action, whether it's through my podcast, my books, my social media, whatever, as people encounter my work, I want to have them walk away feeling bolder and being able to do something different. So the vehicle that I do it in might shift, but that's kind of the underlying purpose of how I show up in the world. So yeah, I am a four time New York Times best selling author. I'm a speaker. I am a book coach and strategist with the book Academy. I'm God's child, and, yeah, I just be out here trying to leave the room better than I found it. I stopped staying even the world because I'm like, the world feels too big. If I can just leave the room that I'm in better than I found it, then I'm doing something. So yeah, I
Chanda Smith Baker 3:34
wrote down questions to ask. And coincidentally, the next one is that both of you all have talked about how the the universe has showed up for you. Marisa, you started it out with that. We also started out with it being more than the universe, but that the universe really has shown up. What advice do you have on being ready when, when it shows up for you?
Marisa C. Williams 3:57
Man, wasn't the sermon yesterday. Anything can happen, but you got to be prepared. So it's about being prepared, but understanding who you're being prepared for, right? And so when this opportunity presented itself, I was happy in Pittsburgh doing my thing. And here comes a LinkedIn DM, talking about, Hey, have you ever thought about Girl Scouts? No. Have you ever thought about Minnesota? Absolutely not. My conversations with Jesus are south of the Mason Dixon. We do not do Caldwell. So it has been. It has been a transformational experience. But what I I do share with people is that there's obedience, there's provision in obedience, right? And so sometimes you have to move and get uncomfortable in order to really experience what the true intersection of passion and purpose is. And I used to say when I left corporate, like, 12 years ago, I was like, You know what? But God, put together my passion and purpose. It's really about, how do I amplify the voices of marginalized communities? And at the time, it was children, because I was working with the YMCA, and then when I transitioned into transitional housing, it was women and children. And then you think about my purpose is, how do I leave people feeling less broken when they walk away from me? And to put all of that together and put me in a position to really shift the narrative of Girl Scouts, right? It's not just about cookies, right? It's not cookies camps and crafts. It is about producing a whole person. And how do we do that, right? How do we teach leadership? One? We have to teach them what fear is, come on, and we have to teach them that there is nothing that they should fear, because fear is the acronym is false evidence appearing real. So what are we worried about? Right? And it's about standing up in spite of fear. It's not to suggest that people that are in leadership are out here just being superheroes. We're shook, we're scared. We have those moments, but you have to show up in spite of that. And so teaching folks how to do that and be honest about how you show up, and knowing that there is there's an opportunity and there's a need for people to be bold, because some things are taught and some things are caught. And I question, what are our young people catching us doing and emulating right right. I want them to catch me doing the right stuff.
Chanda Smith Baker 6:45
Luvvie
What about you? I know you share this story about the universe showing up for you, but
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 6:50
I mean, I feel like my life is a is a series of moments of of God being like I had this thing waiting for you. And I think, I mean, you talked about, you know, how can you be prepared, like when, when it shows up? I mean, staying ready so you ain't got to get ready a lot of times. What happens when an opportunity shows up? And we don't feel like we're prepared, we we're probably prepared, but I think we are discounting what we've done so we don't think we've been prepared for this particular thing. So like for me, my that example is like my TED Talk that now has close to 10 million views. I had been asked to do that TED Talk in March 2017 and I basically turned it down because I didn't think I was ready for it. I turned it down a second time too, and then the third time came around and they asked me to do and it was three weeks before, and I was like, that's crazy. I was like, That's unhinged, because people like Ted don't play about their talks like they have people with coaches four or five months before every talk that you see on the TED stage, it's been scripted, it's been rehearsed, it's been coached through. And three weeks before they're like, Well, if you can come to Ted, we want you to take the stage. And I'm like, That's and I remember I was about to say no again, and I called one of my friends unique, and I was like, Yo, check this out, right? I'm about to send an email to tell Ted No, because they want me to talk on a stage in three weeks and basically come up with a brand new talk, memorize it, get it down pat. And she was and I was like, and everybody else has already gotten months. They've already finalized their talk months ago. So that's insane. And I was on a book. I was on a speaking tour at that time too, so I was taking a stage every two days. So I was like, I'm not gonna have time to do this. And I remember my friend being like, everybody, ain't you. She's like everybody ain't you. You've had practice. You've been prepared for such a time as this. Like everything you've been doing has been getting you ready for this moment exactly. So I'm gonna need you to go write this talk. And she hung up on me if I could argue. And that's ultimately how I was, I was charged up to do this TED talk that changed my life, like, changed my life. Not just changed my life, it also changed the lives of so many people who've watched it, because I still get notes, and it's been seven years, I still get notes from people who are like, Yo, your TED Talk, like, changed me. Like, it shifted my perspective and had me moving different. So I think about those moments of like, How many times have we said no to, times that we should have said yes to? And that's really kind of what fear does, is it immobilizes us, it keeps us from doing purpose work, and, yeah, when God and the universe show up with what what is for you, and you don't recognize it, and you're like, Nah, I like. I'm like, I can't even imagine how different my life would be right now if I didn't do that. TED talk like that. Ted Talk opened doors I didn't even know existed, and I had said no to it twice. And had I not borrowed courage from my. Friend in the moment where I was about to say the third No, because God kept gonna be like, I'm gonna give you another chance to say yes to this thing, because I know what's gonna come from it. Okay, I'm gonna give you another chance. And I was about to fumble that chance too, and he said, Ah, let me get you. Call your friend, call your friend, because she not gonna let you say no this time. So yeah, I just think we are prepared for the opportunities that show up. If we recognize that we are prepared. If you don't think you're prepared, yeah, no, you're not. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. So I think it's better for us to take the big risk and hope it goes well, than to sit in fake safety and bypass a catalyst moment, a Hucky stick moment in our lives, and we do it too often, where we say no, so I'm like, now if I see a big opportunity, I'm gonna say yes and be like, I'll do my best way land after that. At least I tried instead of, dang What if I actually tried? At least I tried, is my whole thing, at least I tried talk about borrowed courage, borrowed courage. So I feel like I wrote my book professional troublemaker, because I wanted to make sure people could borrow from my courage in the way I borrowed from my friends and and it's not even a borrowed courage. I want to give you courage. I don't want you to give it back. You got to give it back. Keep it for yourself like so, yeah, I can. I can loan it to you, but I want you to keep it so it's the idea of in the moments when we can't pull from our own power, when we can't pull from our own courage, when we can't see ourselves in the big way that other people are seeing us, or God is seeing us, I think we should pull from somebody else's. And the thing about courage and power and privilege and all these things is it's like a candle when you pull from somebody else's, it doesn't just it doesn't diminish the other person's so these are infinite resources. Like these are infinite resources that continue. So if I light you up, my light doesn't dim, my light just keeps going. And then you get to light somebody else up. But for me, lighting you up, that domino effect is just eternal. So like courage, we can constantly be loaning from each other's courage. It's it's somebody affirming you in a moment when you're down. It's somebody sending you a text message and being like, I was thinking about you today. I'm so proud of you, just because it is somebody being like, oh my gosh, absolutely yes, you got this. It's Marissa being like, hey, we want to do a book club with you, with the Girl Scouts. Like, these are moments that have such massive ripple effects that cost the other person, maybe not that much. So I always think about this when somebody comes in my mind, like, if I'm going through my day and a friend pops in my mind. I'm like, there's a reason for it. So even if I don't know why they pop in my mind, I'll shoot them a text message that's like, Hey, you're on my mind today. I hope you're doing good. I miss you. Let's catch up soon. And sometimes they'll go, Oh my gosh, you were on my mind last I meant to hit you up. Or I'll send somebody an email and just be like, Hey, I saw your post on social media. I am so proud of you, like you killed it. I just wanted to let you know in case and sometimes what I'll get back is, oh my gosh. I needed to hear that I just came out of a hard meeting. So yes, I think we all need to constantly make sure that you know we are passing on power, not fears, not being like no thing you should do that. It's, no, I think you got this. It is, you know, I'm very proud of you. It is, Hey, I see you. I know it might have been a tough day, but you got this tomorrow. So, yeah, let's just keep on giving each other courage and power.
Chanda Smith Baker 13:54
Yeah. I mean, what I love about it is that the frame is in both asset and abundance. And we often get in spaces where people may have a construction of what it looks like that is Win, lose me or you sort of construct in their mind. And so Marisa, I know you live from a place of abundance. And have you had moments where you've had to borrow right like you you were receiving from someone what you needed in that moment to be able to step forward? Because I think part of the lesson in this is that sometimes we think that we have to have it all like in this body, but we actually have it all within our reach. And I think that that is a subtle shift for people as they think about abundance and opportunity
Marisa C. Williams 14:48
Absolutely. And you know, I have to lean on like my Welcome Wagon in Minnesota, because I came here knowing no one. Uh, and to move in your 40s with a child and a husband, it's a different experience. You're not like, 20 just floating around the country like, hey, let's see what we can get into. It's like, hey, I need to find a school. I need to make sure my kid feels good about this. I need to make sure my husband is like, Okay, so we're doing this after we just built a house. All right? I hope you can just build a house. Girl, when I tell you the obedience was crazy, he said, move. And we said, okay, so it, it was transformational. And when I think about the fact that I had landed here and Chanda, what we met like maybe two months in to me commuting back and forth, and when I tell you that this community wrapped their arms around me and said, We want you to stay, we want you to feel comfortable, we want you to have support, It was mind blowing. I'm like, These people don't know me. And let's be clear, Girl Scouts hasn't always embraced other communities, right? And so when we think about our 100 plus year legacy, it hasn't always been about black and brown girls and inclusion. It's been about the legacy white suburban communities, but the lessons that are being taught are critical for all communities, particularly communities of color. And so to come in here knowing that I was going to have to shift that looking the way that I did, and being unapologetic about all of it, I was like, I'm not really sure how this is gonna go, but I know who got me here, so I know how I'm gonna flow, and I know how I'm gonna stay. And so there is, there's one quote that I was looking at love you in your book, and it literally is, like the last page, so I'm just gonna read it. So it says, Fear is a hater, a liar and a cheat. To be fearless is to commit to not doing less because of our fears. We owe ourselves fearlessness, and we can start now. And so when I think about the process that I had to take to get over being comfortable and being in a space where it was like, Yeah, you could continue doing this work. It's impactful. You're helping women, you're helping children, you're changing you know the conversation about what homelessness looks like, but it was also when you talked about Esther for such a time as this, there's nowhere else I should be other than sparking joy and advocacy and audacity in young girls right now, because we need it, and they need it, and I have always gotten in trouble for my mouth, and that's okay, right? And so it's like, let me teach other young people that you can do that, and there's space for you to be able to do that and to do it well, and so, yeah, you got me all excited.
Chanda Smith Baker 18:12
Let's talk about some good trouble, then. Luvvie? Why this book? Why this time?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 18:18
Man, I wrote professional troublemaker five years ago. It came out four years ago, and I realized now so much of why I needed to to write that book. Like, literally, I wrote my book in the middle of the pandemic, a time when fear actually saved some of our lives. Right where we saw the tangible impact of this is actually when fear comes in handy. Like, yes, a global pandemic forces you to wear a mask because you're afraid. Yes, that is fear, but that same fear is what we used to bring into meetings, innocuous situations. That same fear is the same palpable thing that stops us from saying yes to the to the opportunity. So I'm like, this is really showing us, and I don't think we learned enough in the pandemic, but like, it really showed us, like, Yes, this is when fear matters, not when you sit in your house and you're supposed to make a big move, that's that's when it will stifle you. So I find it interesting that, because I got the deal for my book six months before the pandemic. Funny enough, my deadline was two months after the pandemic started, so I was like, Well, okay, I am on assignment to really talk, I mean, because what a most, scariest time we've ever seen, a once in a lifetime. General, like epidemic was happening. Because I'm writing this book about fear, and I'm like, Man, imagine if we didn't put high alert on everything that we did, because now you see what high alert is really for like, but living at that level for everything, oh, yeah, no, that's unhealthy. And also like will stop us from living this life that we are supposed to live. Of you know it's gonna stop us from the assignments that we're supposed to take on. And professional troublemaker since then has been such a it's proven to be so relevant. Still, I wanted to write a timeless book, and I think I did, because, as you're quoting back to me some of the things in it, which Fun fact, I haven't read my own book since I turned in my last edits. So I don't even know what after I turned in my last edits, I don't read my own books again. So I haven't read my own book, and who knows how long. So that was four years ago. But, um, yeah, for such a time as this, I think, I think the insistence on embodying courage is especially necessary even now. You know, getting the practice, you don't want to practice the thing you need. When you need it, you want to have it already built in. So when you really need it, you can activate it. And I think that whole thing about courage, fear authenticity at a time when we have an administration that is pulling rights from us every day, and me being a truth teller at a time when they're trying to punish people for telling the truth. Now is the time when I have to really embody what I say I am, who I say I am, right, and knowing that the truth must exist with or without the things around us, knowing that who we are called to be cannot change based on who is in what office you know, knowing that the work that we commit to doing must continue, whether externally, internally, all of that, and also recognizing that we are going to have to learn each other courage more than ever, and community is what's gonna save us. So that's why I'm like, borrowing from each other's courage is a must,
Chanda Smith Baker 21:51
yeah? And you know part of this conversation, well, what you just said, right? You can't operate on high alert. And we've also been talking about the universe and God and faith and intertwined in your responses. And there are people that feel like they are untethered, right? Like they just feel like they are actually responding to whatever shows up in the news that day, right? Whatever shows up in their life that day, whatever shows up in that meeting today, and they are operating at a high alert and and highly concerned right, which is understandable, but how they're relating to the concern seems to be without an ability to envision a different future. And Marissa, you're working right in this space with young people, and we are talking about the lessons we're teaching. And I don't know if you can go with me in this question, but I'm trying to, you know, I'm thinking about the lessons that we're talking about and what we've learned, but what happens when children are growing up, where adults are on high alert and everything is is, is tragic and right now, and it's just doomsday all the time, like, what are we teaching our kids,
Marisa C. Williams 23:06
right? And, I mean, it goes back to that piece around, some things are taught and some things are caught. And so our kids are watching how we're being, how we're responding to the chaos. And so as a mom that made that put me on high alert, because I was like, Okay, one, I need to make sure I address this Amazon, Alexa in his room. How do I take off some you know, I mean, the things that you just don't even think about, because he could go down a rabbit hole and watch the news and come out of his room like, traumatized. I'm like, what happened? He was like, I was watching the president. Okay, no, we're not doing that right. And so when you think about, you know what we need to teach, and particularly our young girls, and this really goes back to kind of wrapping everything we do around mental health, because we need to make sure that they're fortified in something. And if you know the universe, God, however you you view that higher power, you can't spend your entire day floating from the news stations to Instagram to Tiktok, like what are you rooted in? And it's a conversation I had with my senior leadership team two weeks ago. I said, Hey guys, you recognize that your job is to spark joy in young people, and you can't spark something that you don't have in yourself. Am I filling your cup on a regular basis to ensure you show up ready for those young kids, because they're dealing with stuff nine times out of 10 you probably have never dealt with in your adult life. So how are we showing up ready to make sure that that overflow is happening for them, because they don't deserve to have to. Deal with adulting. They're not there yet. So how do we spark joy? How do we make sure that they understand their voices matter, and that their opinions, their ideas, all of the things that are within them? We are helping to plant seeds, because either we are planting seeds of belief and growth and abundance, or we're planting seeds of doubt and chaos and stress. And our babies don't need that. They need to know what is possible, regardless of who is in that White House for the next four years. We need to be able to deposit in them what is possible. And so when I think about, you know, I got this book from my my nieces when it first came out, and I said I read the adult version of this book, but you all at 10 and 11 years old, I want you guys to get into this, because there's some really good stuff in here. And if we can avoid this idea of finding ourselves as young women in our 20s, we waste our 20s finding ourselves figure out who you are now, because when you get into your 20s and you get your first job, I'm not listening to all the noise. It's like, No, I know who I'm, who I am, who is I am, and what I came to do. Come on, and I learned that, right? I hope some of them are like I learned that at Girl Scouts, right? But at the end of the day, we need to create a generation of girls who are like, I'm not asking for permission. Come on. I'm showing up ready, because I know what I'm supposed to do, and I feel like this book is a step in the right direction of getting us to that space.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 26:40
Man, that's real. That's real. I can
Chanda Smith Baker 26:44
feel you like, yeah, amen. Y'all can't maybe see her face, but she's real pleased with that. And I think that it's true. I mean, there's so many mixed messages that we get as young people. And I grew up with a loving family, right? That encouraged my voice, and sometimes they were like, You need to go sit in other room. And there were some confusing messages. And, you know, I was a little quieter, I was a little shyer, and I felt like leadership looked a different way than what I felt like I was delivering. And I think that it is difficult to shift through all of the messaging. And so let me you know, like I don't know is this, is this book? Is this approach bringing it to the younger generation? Is it something that you wish you would have had at an earlier age, or is it something that you had clarity on younger and now you want to extend that out.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 27:41
So when I wrote professional troublemaker, and parents were reaching out to me, being like, oh my gosh, I wish I had this when I was little. I wish I could give this to my teenager right now. In fact, me and my teenager are reading it right now together. Parents are the ones, because I wasn't even thinking about writing for teens yet. It was when the book came out that like parents were the ones who were like, I want this for my daughter. I want this for my son. And I literally was like, okay, that actually makes sense to me, because you're right, this actually would have benefited me to read these words, or something like this when I was 16, when I was 15. So that's how rising troublemaker came to be. I think professional Trump maker was six months old, and I went back to my editors and was like, I'm getting this feedback all the time, of parents being like, and aunts and uncles being like, I want to give this to my teenager. So I said, You know what? Let me write and adapt this just for the teens to talk to them and really put myself back into the frame of mind I was in at 16, and what I was insecure about and what I wish I would have heard. So that's what I did. And I really kind of, and it was interesting is my editor was like, you know, your book is actually pretty easy to translate for teens. We can just, like, do a quick, no, I actually went through my manuscript over again and like, rewrote pieces. And I was like, I want this to speak to them. Because, again, yeah, what happens if we hear this messaging way before we're 25, 3040, it will be game changing to note and have that foundational piece early on, then have to catch up to that. So many people were like, I wish if I had this 15 years ago. I would have moved different from jump and that type of getting them early, which is also why the Girl Scouts work is so important, is that foundational knowledge and foundational like power and courage and being told that you have the right to use your voice and you can be successful because of and in spite of that, you know, it's something you can hold on to earlier that it's harder for somebody to grasp out your hands. And Gen Z is a generation that is growing up in a very different time. Time they have to contend with stuff we never had to as teenagers like That's why parents of teenagers now shout out to y'all, because, my gosh, the stuff you have to navigate that our parents never had to even worry about. Our parents have to worry about what other people were saying to us on the internet, because we have the internet. You came home, you sit in your room and they know exactly who you're talking to, because that person had to call the house. Now you have strangers and ghosts who have access to your kids because they have these devices. So yeah, now for sure, we definitely got to tell them that who they are is is necessary the things that make them different, they're superpowers that they are supposed to ask for help, that they should negotiate. You know, these are all things that I'm like, yep, let me go ahead and put that in there. So that's why rising troublemaker for me is such an important book. And the fact that, yes, it's three years old now, and it's been reinvigorated in this way. It means so much to me, because that is the one. What's funny is that is one of my books that people know I have the least rise, and troublemaker is the one that got the least attention.
Chanda Smith Baker 31:14
That's interesting. Yeah, it feels so timely to your point, and you're watching grown women, right us, grown ups, navigating stuff that had we had this perspective that was wider and more expansive and unique to who we are and what we bring into the world. Because even in your TED talk, right in the books, as I'm thinking through this, there's a centering for me on what people think perfection is, or how perfection gets in the way right, which doesn't allow you always to move when you're uncomfortable or when you're unknowing right, to be able to receive right? This, this borrowed courage, because you think that you have to hold it in your body and it has to look a particular way because you've compared it to how someone else is doing it, or that you perceive that they've done it. And so Marissa, where does perfection sit in your life as a leader? How do you how do you think about perfection? I don't.
Marisa C. Williams 32:16
I think I've had to undo so many mindsets, particularly coming to Minnesota, there's this culture of perfectionism, which is truly rooted in white supremacy. And I had white employees tell me that on my first day at Girl Scouts, I said, Wait a minute, where am I? What are we talking about? But they had been going through this process of divorcing their mindsets of this idea that perfectionism was the goal. And I said, if we are so focused on that being the thing we want to achieve, and we're responsible for over 17,000 young people, what are we teaching them? Sometimes, good enough is good enough. And so I try really hard to ensure that everything that I do, I bring the human to it, because they've got to know that there's no invisible red cape. I mean, I do see them floating around the city. I do because I'm like, How are y'all out here doing all of this? But there's got to be a human element to leadership, because so many people think that it only belongs to a select few of us, and leadership is not the title, it's the activity. It's the action that you choose to take, right? It's the impact that you want to make. That is well beyond. How many likes can I get on Instagram, because all of a sudden, I'm connected to somebody, or how many, you know, how many followers can I get on LinkedIn because, you know, that's the adult Facebook, right? It's like, yeah, you can pontificate on LinkedIn if you want to. But who is that helping? Are you creating this because you feel like it'll be helpful, or are you creating it because you feel like you want to get celebrates and likes and loves and all of that and so really focusing on impact over this concept of fake perfection.
Chanda Smith Baker 34:32
Yeah, well, you brought in social media now, and there is a performance to it, which you were just talking about. And then there is impact that you can have, right, including, I think, seeing how people show up authentically or what appears to be authentically on it. How do you navigate Facebook, right, like, especially with our young people, right, because they don't know. Not a comparison. And so what advice do you have? Because it is a tool that you have to keep within context, but it is informing a lot of people, a lot of young people, on who they are, like their perception of worth, perception of beauty, profession, you know, their perception of leadership. So let me you are a beast on social media, and how are you slaying it? Like what advice do you have for folks that are looking at that and maybe don't understand it is a tool,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 35:36
honestly, one thing I've done about social media is I've never chased the trends or the algorithm. I've never attempted to hack the algorithm or now they say we they like reels best. Let's just post reels. Now they say they like carousels. Let's just post that. I honestly so I'm an early adopter of all the social platforms. I've been on Facebook since july 2004 like and Facebook started February 2004 so I've been on Instagram Since 2012 I've been on I was on Twitter since 2008 I'm no longer on Twitter, but like, I have been an early adopter of every single one of these platforms. I've watched the evolution. Heck, I'm in the Black Twitter documentary that's on Hulu. So social media for me, has allowed me to build my career, but I have never depended on social media to be what does my work for me? So before social media, I had my blog. Even as I was active on social media, at the peak of Facebook and Twitter. I always maintain that blog, I had a mailing list. My Money does not come mostly from social media like so I never built a career where my revenue was tied purely to what was happening on social media. Nope. So even though I'm very present, even though I'm early adopter, I am as close to an expert on social media, as you can get to in terms of credentials and experience. For me, social media is a virtual signal. It is a means to an end. I use social media to, you know, cultivate my audience, but I always move them out of it, because building your life's purpose in such a rented space is fragile, and it is the quickest way to you're basically putting a lot of money on something that might be taken away tomorrow, like they can delete all my platforms tomorrow if they feel like it. And I know for a fact my platforms are no no and in those HQs, if they decide I did too much today, they can delete my platforms. So I'm always prepared for that, where I'm like, if my audience all of a sudden types in lovey on Facebook, on Instagram and can't find me, they know where to find me. They know awesome love is right there. I have a Patreon now. I have a newsletter, like they can always find I have my own websites. I have like, three different websites, love you.org I have awesomely love you my blog. I got the book Academy. So if you're ever like, where's love yet, easy to find me. And if you Google my name, all my stuff comes up. So whether or not I'm on social platforms, I will be heard. And I think that's really important for all of us to not depend on other people's fickle to do the work that we're called to do. Do not depend on other people's ideas and thoughts and permission to move with intention, and that has been critical in how I've moved in business and just in general. So even now, like, I tell people, like, yeah, I use social media to just have you remember that I'm here, but then you hear from me in deeper ways. I my podcast, my books. So that's the thing about us. And oftentimes people talk about legacy, don't use social media just for your legacy. If you can be erased because somebody deletes your platform at a headquarters in San Francisco, you built it on quicksand.
Chanda Smith Baker 39:09
What I hear you also saying is that you're curating your life, right? You're owning your power, you're owning your platform, you're owning your message and what? What advice Marissa, do you have to young people stepping into their power because, because love you just articulated such clarity on how you're using it, where you understand the shortcomings are right, that you don't want to be you don't want your work or race because you've relegated your power to someone else, right? Like you are in control of what you're doing. And so if you're taking steps, do it intentionally and know where you end and where someone else begins. And so Marisa, what advice do you have for young people that are stepping into their own power? And want to lead without losing themselves in sort of that process.
Marisa C. Williams 40:06
So I think the first thing is, really understand your why, right? Like, why do you want to do whatever it is that you feel called to do? And the second piece of it is their piece about what you feel like you've been called to do, because if there's chaos around it, then it's probably not for you. And so understanding those two important things allows you to take that step with confidence into those spaces, and knowing who you are allows you to show up in that same way. I'll never forget the I think it was women in business leadership luncheon last year, Carla Vernon from the Honest Company, who gave the best shout out to Girl Scouts when she became the CEO of the Honest Company, by saying she learned about entrepreneurship through Girl Scouts. And she got on the stage, and they asked her a question about imposter syndrome and her level of confidence, and I'm sitting in the back of this room, and she said, Well, I don't have a confidence problem. The other people around me do, and they try to project that on me, but I make sure that they understand I know why I'm here. I know that I'm qualified to be here, and I am not confused about the role that I sit in and how I got here. And it was such a powerful statement to be made by a woman of color with the absolute audacity of truth attached to it, and so to understand in that moment that one the imposter syndrome wasn't created for us by us, and it doesn't apply to us, because nine times out of 10, we're not confused about why we're in the spaces we're in. Other people are inserting their questioning around who we are and how we got there, but we are very clear that we worked really hard to get into those spaces. So I think understanding your why and not getting tripped up. I think lovey you said something about like not managing the trends. I think it almost became popular for people to say, oh my gosh, I have an imposter syndrome, so that you had this fake humility about the spaces that you were in. And I was like, Well, stop saying that, because I'm I'm not confused. And I went right back to my office, printed out her quote, put it on my wall, and made sure everybody, when they come in my office, they see that I'm not confused. I know why I'm here
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 42:40
that part. Why should we be confused, I think. And one of the things I was talking to who was I saying, I think I said it on my keynote last week, where I actually saw the Girl Scouts of South New England. They were so dope. But I was talking about how who benefits from our confusion and our doubt and our constantly questioning ourselves. Like the world benefits because it keeps us below where we should be, but the world actually doesn't benefit, because in our lack of confidence, we don't move with intention, which means innovation is not happening at the level it should, because we're constantly questioning whether we should do that thing. So especially for women like it's such a thing for women to question ourselves. I meeting sometimes. I was admitting recently, and a woman was like, let me know if this is a terrible idea. But know what she said, why we even started like that? Girl, don't even start like that. And it is so habitual. It is habitual. I call it out when I see it, because I'm like, don't do that. You if you think your idea is good, just say it, but don't couch it with the idea that it's already bad, because you're already moving with the fact that it's not a confident idea, which gives me less confidence in you,
Chanda Smith Baker 43:59
right? I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but I disagree.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 44:03
Like, that's why I was, like, We gotta stop the confidence gap starts so early. That's why Marissa, like, it's definitely one of the points that I'm gonna make when I talk to the girls in May. Everybody wins when you're more confident actually, like, don't because we get told that humility, here's the thing, I'm not humble by diminishing my work or my by questioning myself. I'm humble by knowing that I'm not self made, that I am God made, community, made, village, made. But my humility is not tied to whether I'm going to wonder whether what what I just did was good. I know it was great, you know. So I think for us and getting the girls early, to recognize that is that there's so many things that are being done to make you less confident and to make you question yourself more, you need to make sure you do not you need to make sure that you stand in your power and don't have people. Have you questioning yourself with what you know to be true, know to be good. So yeah, and that's something I actually wish I would have told, been told earlier. I got it later on, but if I was 12 being told, don't let people have you questioning yourself, that voice will ring in my head the next time I see somebody doing it, and I'll go, ooh, nope, I've Nope, I see it. I'm not going to allow it.
Chanda Smith Baker 45:27
Can you talk about maybe? I'll start with you, Marissa, the role that sisterhood and community has played for you professionally and personally. Because part of how I even see the Girl Scouts, aside from all the things that you said, right, is that it also builds a community, right? It shows you how to navigate within a community of girls. And you talk to me about how sisterhood has showed up for you, or community in your in your work or personal life. So
Marisa C. Williams 45:56
I think when I was younger, I was one of those girls that was like, I don't know. I don't think I can be in a in a big group of girls, like, I don't know if girlfriends is like, that's gonna be my thing. And when I got older, I realized Marissa was so stupid to say out loud, and thank God there's no social media to capture those, those thoughts that you put out there in the universe. Because now, as an adult like I relish the community that I've created intentionally to be able to support me and speak life over me. And I think that you know, in having conversations early on with volunteers, they were like, you know we want what you have in your sorority, because I have a predecessor at Girl Scouts who is also a delta. And I said, Wait a minute, like you want Girl Scouts to be like delta? I said, that is a big, hairy, audacious goal, and I love that for us, but when I think about how we view sisterhood in d9 and what Girl Scouts has created, I think that it's definitely possible to create this community for young girls to see each other as that support system. And one of the things that I've been pouring into our older girls, because most Girl Scouts, they say, Okay, we got to middle school. There's no Riz on this. I don't want to wear this sash anymore. I'm over it. I'm going to go do sports and whatever else, right? And so it's like, well, that's the exact time that you need it, because your self confidence plummets to the lowest it will ever be at the age of 12. And then you say, poof, I'm done with this community. And so pouring back into older girls that you need each other and you need that support system. And if we built a generation of young women who instead of looking at each other for what they didn't have as a negative, they looked at each other for what they didn't have as an opportunity to organize and bring together all of the tools and resources that they need to be successful, they would be unstoppable. Because I surround myself with people that are excellent in spaces that I am not. Because we don't need a bunch of Marissa, my mom will echo that sentiment. We do not right? And so at the end of the day, we need a bunch of different folks that are amazing and different things to come together and be able to create something different and beautiful. And I think that there's that power in women. And I'm I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, black women do it well, and we have set this template that others are trying to emulate with all of these other women's organizations, and I love that for y'all. But you could also invite us in, pay us and teach you how to do it the right way, because we've been doing it, and we know how to do it, and we know the why, why
Chanda Smith Baker 49:01
we're doing it. Yeah, we're doing it. You've been loving. I mean, the reason why I brought up the community thing is because love you were like, you know, if I'm at the table and I hear someone discount their power, Imma, Imma say something, right? And I think about these moments where women, particularly black women, will say something, I don't even have to know them for them to know me, right? For them to be like sis, right? Matter of fact, I was walking to church a couple weeks ago, and, you know, I was feeling rushed. I wanted to be in the bed, you know, all the stuff, all the things in my head. And I walked by, and I'm like, How was church today? Was it good? And she grabbed me by the arm and she said, church is always good. It's always good. And I'm like, I needed that correction. I needed that correction. Um, I absolutely needed her to stop me and and I think we do have. Have a way of doing that, and I know that my ability to navigate is because of how community and sisterhood has showed up for me. And so I just want to just restate because we're talking about girls. Um, lovey, what? What role has sisterhood played in in your life?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 50:19
Sisterhood is everything like my my sisterhoods are why I probably have to, not even just half, but like such a big reason why I move with such confidence, also on top of mine, is because with my sisters, I know I can't ever fail, even if I make a mistake, I can't ever fail. They got me in in big ways, small ways, like I had one of my friends pull up on me one weekend in 2022 because she was like, I don't like how you sound. Flew from LA and was like, I'm coming to spend four days with John, pulling up with my dog. I have friends who are like, Oh, you need a job. Bet got you on a speaking engagement. You know, I have friends in the quiet moments who will call and say what you need, how you doing, or will laugh together. I think for me, system, it is everything. It is so deeply tied to my journey, my they're the ones who speak my name up in rooms, and I'm not I'm not in. You know, I think about the Delta sisterhood, about how you immediately meet somebody and you are already like, oh, yeah, no, you, you already part of the global family that's here, um, black women sisterhood, specifically, there's something so sacred about it. It is so sacred in a way. I'm like, Man, bring me back in every lifetime as a black woman, every lifetime I'm choosing black womanhood, every time that part, because we are y'all like, I think about it, I'm like, damn. I know people who not black gonna be looking at it sometimes like I'm hating,
Marisa C. Williams 52:04
please hate because it's as
Chanda Smith Baker 52:05
good as it looks. It is as good as it looks. Moments where somebody says something, and then we just all look at each other. We all understood it,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 52:14
and we have a language the way we vibe with each other. You ain't gotta know somebody. You see somebody you see somebody on the street looking good. You be like, yo. Like, thank you. Like, when I'm walking through the airport and a black woman compliments me my flight late, I'm good because I just got the black girl had not Oh yeah. When T I walk into TSA Pre check and the TSA lady looks at my shoes, a black woman, she goes, Oh, you bad. I said, Ah, thank you. Okay, we just we are so vibey. We are such the vibes be so immaculate. Okay, so I think for me, I mean black women sincere does everything. It is a bomb, it is a swaddling, it is a safe space. One of my friends books is coming out called a soft landing on hard days. That is what black sisterhood is. It is a soft landing on hard days, and I am just that's also why I'm like, one of my assignments is to make the lives of black women easier. If I can make black girls and black women's lives easier by doing the work that I do, I am fulfilling one of my assignments. So, yeah, defender of black girls is one of my titles, defender of black womanhood.
Chanda Smith Baker 53:32
Yeah, I love it, and you all are partnering together to make the assignment easy. Can I just take
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 53:37
this moment say shout out to Marisa, okay, because partnering with the Girl Scouts is one of those things that was like, in my wish list. But I was like, one day I'll figure out how to do it. One day I'll try to do it. It was just there, like, I was like, one day I'll figure it out. I'm gonna just I'll figure it out. And then Marisa hit me up through our mutual friend we meet at women evolve. And Marissa was like, bet we're gonna have you come to a virtual book club with the Girl Scouts. And I literally was like, That is such a prayer answered a prayer that I was like, I'ma pray that later. But it just knows on my list. So it was like, whoa. So you want to talk about the universe showing up, God showing up, and being like, I got you that. That was a moment. So like Marissa, I just I'm so deeply appreciative, because I want us to blow this out the water. I am so thankful for women like you who champion my work and answer prayers that I said I was going to say later. Like, that's the funny part. I didn't even said the prayer yet. And here you go. I just put it on my list. I just put on my listen. I say I'm touch that later. Here you go. So thank you so much. And that is a power of black sisterhood in action, in action. I was like that, right there is so meaningful and how we continue to show up for each other in that way, it just always hardens me.
Marisa C. Williams 55:10
I love that, yeah and know that we are just so excited to have you. It was more than just let me put Livi in front of the girls that I have in Minnesota. It was, how can I use my network and expose 1000s of young people to who this dynamic, bad ass woman is? Because they need to see that, and they need to see who you are unapologetically and how you show up for whether it's for our youngest girls, because love, she has a new book coming out. I know that's not the topic of today, but she has a new one coming out that is perfect for our kindergarteners through elementary school, girls, so our daisies, our brownies, our juniors, they're going to get a taste of Love you too. But it was, how do we get this to Jersey? How do we get this to New York? How do we get this to California? Because that's how important this message is for a time such as this,
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 56:14
for the daisies, the brownies, I'm excited for them too. But no for real though, I have to say that, especially for to be a black author who is making a career out of writing books. I just want to let you know that the reverberation of you all also partnering with me allows other black authors to be taken seriously too, because I think about how much my book success have literally opened doors for other people to get deals. So this also has that domino effect that I was talking about earlier. And like I said, one of my roles is to make the lives of other black people easier. So every book that the Girl Scouts buys lets people know, oh, man, there's demand for black authors, yes. So this also goes outward in a big way. And it's just, it's a big deal. So thank you all, and shout out to the Delta sisterhood too,
Chanda Smith Baker 57:09
the Delta sisterhood. And before we wrap, I just want to be really clear that black authors aren't just for black people.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 57:16
That part, that part points,
Chanda Smith Baker 57:21
black authors are not just for black people, because we need everybody to understand the brilliance that exists within those books written by authors who happen to be black. It is important. But the exposure point here you're not segregating out little black girls for this partnership. No focus. It is for everyone. I just want to say that because some and they're mamas too, and their mom, they're
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 57:50
mamas too.
Chanda Smith Baker 57:54
I love it if they want to find out more about this, this partnership, Marisa, where would they go?
Marisa C. Williams 57:58
They can go to girlscoutsrv.org, and they can register right online. They can actually go to love these website. I know she's pushing things out about it, and also our Instagram, gsrv, and so we are so looking forward to May 15, at 6pm Central Standard Time. Y'all can figure that out, because I don't talk in East Coast or Pacific anymore
Luvvie Ajayi Jones 58:25
and so Iinvite parents to sign their girls up, because I want your girl to walk away that night feeling like she can do anything and that it is not just an abstract topic. I want your girl to walk away, and she will. I want her to walk away knowing that she's part of a community of girlhood who is driving innovation in this world. I want her to walk away feeling confident about that thing that made her feel weird before that thing that she was like, I'm kind of good at it. But I want her to be able to walk away saying full chest, how amazing that she is. So I want you all to bring your girls. It's going to be dope, and I know a girl is going to drive the conversation. So it's not going to be adults driving the conversation. The girls are going to drive the conversation. I'm excited for them. And here's the coolest thing about it, they also get a troublemaker patch. The Girl Scouts created a custom which, oh, my God, my inner child is lit. I'm putting it on one of my jean jackets. They created a custom troublemaker patch that every girl who signs up will get. I'm excited. May 15, y'all come join us. Bring the girls. Let's have a night where we can change them and have them with the foundation that their power is not just nice to have. We need it. The world needs them to show up fully and take up space.
Chanda Smith Baker 59:49
There is no other way to close this conversation than an invitation for girls to take up more space and do it with confidence. There's no better closing than that. Thank you. Love you. Thank you. Marissa. For this conversation, I am happy to be partnering with you as we amplify the need for courage, for boldness, for sisterhood. Thank you so much for what you both do, and it has been a pleasure. You.